AF447

172driver wrote:

I have always – and still do – failed to comprehend how this system ever got certified. I mean, an AB is a multi-crew airplane by design and some ‘clever’ engineer decided to hide what effectively is the most vital control input from the other pilot? Who signed off on that? It simply beggars belief, but here we are.

So yes, IMHO including Airbus in the lawsuit makes sense.

@172driver, same here – until recently I did not realise how it works. I always thought that the sticks are interconnected to some central module, and then that module controls the FBW system.

I agree with all of that, Snoopy, but you are seeing it from the “present situation” POV. I don’t think I would start from where we are now.

When the accident happened I wasn’t surprised, based on my perception of how things were and still are done. I’m actually more surprised how well the system continues to work.

Raven wrote:

The problem with Airbus FBW system is that guys have no indication about others sidestick position.

Yes that is one of the basic high-level Airbus design decisions that removes the pilot from the control loop. The issue is not only the feedback from the other pilot’s inputs but also from the autopilot, moving (or not moving in Airbus) yoke/stick and throttle in response to A/P commands.

This enjoyable EuroGA talk by an Airbus test pilot who has been instrumental in mitigating the impact of such pilot-removal from the control-and-feedback loop on several Airbus aircraft is very relevant.

You cannot wholly blame a guy that pulls the stick in response to a stall warning that activates when pushing and deactivates when pulling…

We need to do better in piloting, yes, but also in design: why have pilots in the cockpit if they are out of the loop?

I have one friend who recently retired from AF long haul flights on 777’s, sharing the blunt of the long haul AF routes with A330’s. Guess which of the two is the preferred aircraft by AF pilots. The irony in this case is it was also preferred by the beancounters and maintainers, that I also know a couple of at AF. Apparently they had to do a lot of explaining to the French government to justify the original decision to go for 777’s (vs A330’s)

There is no simple solution or remedy to commercial aviation safety.
Even great Triple 7 had its down backs when flying improperly (Emirates crash in Dubai) even when flown by experienced captain.
What we need is good Situational Awareness. Be it stalled aircraft (Air France) or trying to make a goaround without increasing power (Emirates 777).
Airliners are already extremely safe. Every moment there are about 5000 aircrafts on the sky. Try to imagine how many flight hours they make per year. And still a fatal accident happens relatively rarely.
Coming back to Airbus FBW system – it’s not true that the pilots are out of the loop. The information they get are slightly narrowed but not leading to unsafe situation. We just adopt for a bit different spectrum of inputs and it works just fine.

Raven wrote:

trying to make a goaround without increasing power (Emirates 777).

That one frustrated me a lot – why there was no loud horn sound after the PF pressed TOGA, or when there was a (kind of) touchdown?
The autopilot/autothrottle either works, so when you press a button it actions the command, or not – in that case there should have been a warning sound during the A/T disconnect on touchdown or on pressing TOGAs.

At least on the 777 you will see throttle movement in conjunction with engine acceleration so you know if the A/T is doing its thing or not without needing to look at the flight mode annunciator…just push the %@$ levers forward, stow the speed brakes, make sure autobrake is not engaged, and go! We’ ll deal with trim, flaps, automatics, once we have a positive energy trend…

„ At least on the 777 you will see throttle movement in conjunction with engine acceleration so you know if the A/T is doing its thing or not without needing to look at the flight mode annunciator…”

That particular accident would not happen in Airbus.
For go around you always push thrust levers to the wall – TOGA. It will give you full thrust. There are no buttons. It will also retract spoilers automatically.
Moving levers are not something necessary. You learn to check engine status from instruments, not from lever position.

So you can check engine status from instruments on Airbus: are you implying that is an advantage ?

Antonio,
Are you implying that you asses your engine thrust from position of the lever?
I would say – unsafe.

It is unsafe to assess the engine thrust solely from lever position: agreed.
It is unsafer having to rely solely on a visual on engine instruments to determine if the engines are reacting to a command (from either autothrottle or the pilot flying) than being able to get additional information while possibly still looking outside for the relevant unsafe condition causing the go-around, while noting in the corner of your eye how throttles are moving up and therefore discarding a potential flight mode mismatch without using up any braincells or eye-time, then checking engine instruments as necessary. It is even clearer if you are speaking of primary flight controls (vs thrust control).

For example, the BA38 777 crew wasted no time checking for autothrottle engagement, flight mode annunciation, etc when they lost engine power on approach: they could see the mismatch between thrust lever position and engine instruments. This gave them a chance to reconfigure the aircraft and save everyone onboard. On an Airbus they may still be trying to figure out what is it doing now? while buried 10 ft underground….

All auto-spoiler aircraft I know will retract spoilers on throttle application post-auto deployment upon landing, perhaps a Part-25 rqt, but definitely not an Airbus exclusive.

It is clear you have experience with large aircraft and are watchful for unsafe conditions. If you regularly fly a FBW Airbus, will you tell me you have never witnessed an unsafe condition which would have been averted had there been a feel or visual of yoke/stick movement upon command from autopilot of PF?