Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Crashes that changed plane design

The other interesting thing is what changes will come as a result of MH370.

First they have to code the pings of the F/R underwater locator beacon. The other day I saw an interview with a scientist of an oceanographic institute in Kiel on German TV who told the audience that beaked whales communicate with the same “pings”. Almost unbelievable our certifying authorities did not know that nor care about it. Good example of missing interdisciplinary skills.

EDxx, Germany

The other day I saw an interview with a scientist of an oceanographic institute in Kiel on German TV who told the audience that beaked whales communicate with the same “pings”.

I can see the headline: “MH370 confirmed to be still flying underwater at low speeds”

that’s the link to the scientist
Link

Here his statement (abbreviated and only in German) that came via a press agency:
Olaf Boebel, Leiter Ozeanakustik am Alfred-Wegener-Institut (AWI), hält es für wahrscheinlicher, dass die Signale von einer Gruppe von Schnabelwalen stammen. «Der Frequenzbereich ist sehr ähnlich.» Außerdem passe die Wiederholungsrate und das charakteristische «Klick»-Geräusch, das dem «Ping» einer Blackbox ähnele. Von den Schnabelwalen gebe es Hunderttausende – deshalb sei es durchaus denkbar, dass sie den Suchteams in die Quere kämen.

another interesting article Link

As the search for flight MH370 persists, Europe’s aviation safety authority has, ironically, been assessing the costs of reinforcing the underwater locator features on aircraft and their flight recorders.
This assessment is part of a proposal drawn up after the similar loss of Air France flight AF447 aimed at avoiding frustrating and expensive efforts to trace aircraft missing over oceans.
European Aviation Safety Agency regulators are seeking to raise, from 30 days to 90 days, the minimum transmission duration of acoustic 37.5kHz underwater locator beacons installed on the cockpit-voice and flight-data recorders.
The measures also call for installation of 8.8kHz beacons on aircraft performing long-range overwater flights.
Both were put forwards as part of a broader package to make flight recorders more robust and easier to locate.

Last Edited by nobbi at 18 Apr 11:36
EDxx, Germany

The problem with sorting out better ultrasonic emitters is that you still have to find the general area to start with, and quite accurately.

If AF447 did not emit those ~20 ACARS messages, they would have probably never found it and it would have been a total mystery.

The likely solution? You don’t need a PhD to work that out

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The Wright Brothers original Flyer was dynamically unstable – in fact when they pitched for a defence contract they managed to kill the procurement officer in an accident.

Curtiss designed the first practical aircraft that was positively stable. Anderson’s Introduction to Flight has some good background on safety design improvements over time.

The improvement in safety from the Cessna 150 to the 152 – reduce flaps to 30 degrees max, and introduce a gated switch – which I believe was mentioned on this forum, shows how simple changes have quite large effects.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

The improvement in safety from the Cessna 150 to the 152 – reduce flaps to 30 degrees max.Quote

I would not agree that a 152 is more safe than a 150 at all, they are slightly different flying aircraft, whose characteristics should be properly trained, as would be the case for any aircraft. It would be understandable to say that a pure training aircraft does not need the additional capability provided by 40 flap over 30, that can be reserved for the more utility aircraft like the 180/185. The 30 flap of the 152 is probably more a result of the lesser ability to meet the balked landing climb requirement, which the 150 meets adequately. The simple reality is that 152’s require more takeoff distance that the 150 did, if the 150 is configured with a climb prop.

If the capability to perform a landing with 40 flap is a reduction in safety, I’m a little worried about the pilot training, not the plane…..

Every landing I do is a full flap landing, that’s what they are there for!

Home runway, in central Ontario, Canada, Canada

If what you want is 30 degrees of flaps, not 40, then use 30 degrees of flaps… My flapped plane, not a Cessna, which DAR has seen with his own eyes has too much flap for most landings – unless VTOL is your goal. The CS prop behaves much like an anchor. Best to choose what you need for flaps, and use it to best effect.

All the light Cessnas are so easy to land it almost defies description. I hadn’t flown one for ten years and then had the opportunity to land one at Friedrichshafen last week. Greased it on, and that made me smile because I’m easily amused.

The gated switch and preselection is a good thing: better controls versus restricted aerodynamics.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 19 Apr 01:43

Silvaire

The problem with the 150 is that it wasn’t that easy to select thirty or forty flap setting with the old toggle switch. The 152 has a gate from twenty to thirty.

I’ve tried to track down a safety study, as at one point there was a much higher incidence of stall/spin events in the 150 vs the 152. Pilot DAR you may know whether one was ever completed?

At the end of the day safety is improved by reducing the risk of stall spin accidents, hence the safety record of the taper wing Warrior. This can be in the form of benign stall characteristics (wing twist, stall strips inboard, limiting stabilator travel, effective warning). The Warrior is not a very effective trainer in this regard, but for the average PPL it is self evidently a safer aircraft.

With respect to the benefits of forty degree flaps in a 150. You have a higher rate of descent in a flapless slip than with full flaps (due to less rudder effectiveness with flaps), and you will land in a field from which you can’t take off.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

It would also be interesting to note what has not changed.

For example the user interface design on most avionics doesn’t seem to be much good. Too many layers of functionality and a lot of non-obvious stuff which could easily be made obvious.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Some of the touch screen stuff from Garmin is getting more intuitive, but the G1000 and things of similar vintage are still hopelessly reliant on reading the manual and training a lot if you are using the more advanced functions IMHO. As a non IFR flyer, but working as an ATCO, there are some hints that pilots sometimes struggle to use their avionics properly.

Ex: You fly a complex single like a PA46, EA50 or some such, which often have all the bells and whistles in the avionics, when you cannot fly to and follow STARSs flying DCT RNAV fixes on arrival, req vectors etc I sometimes wonder if the avionics are a bit too complicated.

(There will hopefully be a AIBN report over here on a close call in Oslo last year, with this as likely contributing factor)

Hokksund/ENHS
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top