Aviathor wrote:
Don’t sleep in class
oh ! sorry I did not read all pages that I missed 
Surprises me too then…
FR seulement has disappeared from a lot of visual approach charts I’ve looked at recently
Capitaine wrote:
FR seulement has disappeared from a lot of visual approach charts I’ve looked at recently
VERY good news. Hope it disappears from all of them. Maybe EASA have put their foot down? I recall vivid discussions during the roadmap presentation in Bern about this and EASA’s folks were very attentive to this problem.
Several of the airfields in this area are fr. Only or are fr.only when there is no AFIS. Many do not require a radio at all. There are some, including those with an IAP which are also fr.only and some which will provide an English speaking AFIS if you give advance notice. None of this contravenes the rules of the air according to EASA regulations or those of the DGAC or the norms and recommended practices in the ICAO annexes. The regulations also allow for a French Airline pilot, whatever the registration to fly into an airport with French ATC to use French to communicate with ATC, in fact the regulations encourage it outside of the training environment.
Fontenay le Comte for instance requires radio A/A and fr.only.However many Brits, Swiss, Germans, Belgians come here are welcome. It is preferable though to have the basic french terminology. Remember that if you use the services of the SIV (service information vol, flight information service,marked on the 1.500000 maps with radio frequency, and English speaking. ) they will bring you within sight of the airfield before handing you over to 123, 5 for the overhead join. From here the French language is not so difficult "Overhead = vertical, downwind = VENT ARRIERE, Base = etape de base, final= finale.okay the pronunciation is a little different but most pilots here will know you are not French from the moment you say bonjour (at least I hope you say bonjour and will probably steer clear.I would also suggest that you precede each call with the airfield name eg Fontenay Le Comte- GABCD vent arriere. This is due to there being many airfields in the area on the same frequency. I hope the French language does not put you off flying to the small fields of France. If you are still unsure I believe Jamie on this site and based at Bordeaux Leognan Saucat can help.He does the ELP exams for many of the French in this area.
I just checked the Atlas VAC and have to correct Capitaine here. There have been absolutely no changes to the number of FR-only airfields in the last 12 months or so.
The list is still as follows:
1) AFIS airfields with FR-only:
Lézignan-Corbières (LFMZ), Amiens-Glisy (LFAY), Ouessant (LFEC), Ile d’Yeu (LFEY), Le Puy (LFHP), Roanne (LFLO), Royan Medis (LFCY), Granville (LFRF), Aurillac (LFLW), Montluçon Gueret (LFBK).
2) A/A airfields with FR-only:
Soulac-sur Mer (LFDK), Les Mureaux (LFXU), Lessay (LFOM), St. Flour (LFHQ), Ussel (LFCU), Lille Marcq-en-Baroeul (LFQO), Villeneuve-sur-Lot (LFCW), Marmande (LFDM), Gaillac (LFDG), Villefranche-Tarare (LFHV), Macon (LFLM), Bagnoles (LFAO), Pontivy (LFED), Vesoul (LFQW), Maubeuge (LFQJ), Montpellier Candillargues (LFNG), Nîmes-Courbessac (LFME), Nogaro (LFCN), Pontivy (LFED), Saumur (LFOD), L’Aigle (LFOL), Guiscriff (LFES), Graulhet (LFCQ), Fumel (LFDX), Fontenay-Le Compte (LFFK), Charleville-Mezieres (LFQV), Castelsarrasin (LFCX), Bourg (LFHS), Bernay (LFPD), Ancenis (LFFI), Amberieu (LFXA), Chambley (LFJY), Revel (LFIR)
This list might miss a couple of them, but certainly no more.
Anyway, as I said, no changes in the last year or so. The last couple of them “losing” the FR-only restriction were Strasbourg-Neuhof LFGC (2 years ago) and Mulhouse Habsheim LFGB (about 3 years ago).
personally I would never use a language I don’t speak sufficiently to understand for radio coms. I’ve seen people even do that with English using cheat sheets but they had NO IDEA what they would hear on the radio and made horrible mistakes trying to utter their position reports by piecing them together from an handwritten word list. Apart I would shudder to think what composing a message from a cheat sheet would do to airspace surveillance.
For me, such behaviour is VERY dangerous in two ways:
- Your own reports may be inaccurate or outright wrong when you are trying to compose a message this way.
- Any reply you might receive or even the blind calls by other people in the vicinity would be totally incomprehensible to you.
In such a case, NORDO might be the better solution.
I don’t want to restart a discussion about RT exams let alone LP in those languages, but I honestly wonder how anyone can feel comfortable using a language he can not comprehend in a critical environment.
Mooney Driver, I don’t think I ever mentioned crib sheets I simply wrote that at French only airports the SIV will generally bring you in sight of the airfield in English and so you only really need to learn the position reports in French, and they are very similar words in many cases to the English. French people have to pass an exam in English to fly outside of the hexagon. It is a very difficult exam. I know one Brit here who has a degree in English from Oxford University who was given a level 5 in his FCL055D exam at the DGAC. As to the legality or illegality of it. The DGAC answer would be that one needs to be FLP level 4. However I have yet to be able to find out how one gets that stamped in a non French licence. I tend to be agree with the position of don’t rock the cage. I think it’s sad that people are missing out on so many places to fly to in France if they are of the same opinion as Mooney Driver. But if you are hoping that one day all these airfields will drop the fr. seulement or become non radio I think you will be wait a very long time. At the clubs I know, less than 10% of the members have ELP.
However I have yet to be able to find out how one gets that stamped in a non French licence.
Here in the UK at least, you get it by doing a meeting (or a revalidation flight, etc) with any Examiner. I come from Czechoslovakia (came to UK in 1969) and got my Level 6 signed off by the CAA staff examiner who did my initial JAA IR checkride in 2012.
On an FAA license Level 6 is implicit because you cannot get any FAA license without it. However they updated the plastic card in recent years with the ELP statement
for the benefit of the European regulators
At the clubs I know, less than 10% of the members have ELP.
Yes; something like that was posted here and here. Both posters are non-French but live there.
From many visits to France I am sure a lot more than 10% of French people – particularly the, say, under 50s – can speak English, and understand it pretty well, but that isn’t the same thing as having applied for the ELP.
Any reply you might receive or even the blind calls by other people in the vicinity would be totally incomprehensible to you.
I do think that is correct.
Of course you may understand some calls, but at any GA airfield there is a tendency to use “conversational” language, not just the strict ICAO calls, which will reduce the % that one will be able to identify if one learnt just those phrases. And it isn’t just the pilots; I have had two airproxes at LFAT, where the controller cleared me in English and cleared a local pilot in French. One was recent and my TCAS alerted me so I did an orbit for spacing. The other was in 2001 or so and I had a French speaking FI in the RHS (it was the “famous” UK compensation for crap PPL training institution called a “cross channel checkout” ) where ATC cleared us for right base and cleared a local pilot for left base at the same time, and the FI did not pick it up until we were head-on.
I see (hear) many non-UK pilots flying into Shoreham, where ATC speaks “queen’s english” but many of them really struggle on the radio. I doubt they decipher many radio calls made by the locals…
I suppose one could argue that, with no ATC, making position reports even in very heavily accented French is better than nothing, because the locals will tend to avoid such a pilot getting anywhere near
OTOH, some people are very good at picking up languages. My father could speak Czech, English, Spanish, French, Italian, Russian, German… It’s a gift some have. They can make good use of it.
gallois wrote:
SIV will generally bring you in sight of the airfield
SIV=“Service d’Information en Vol” is a French acronym for FIS = “Flight Information Service”
gallois wrote:
hexagon
“Hexagone” is French slang for France. I do not think that term is well known by “foreigners”
gallois wrote:
they will bring you within sight of the airfield before handing you over to 123, 5 for the overhead join
gallois wrote:
The DGAC answer would be that one needs to be FLP level 4
This has been done to death. The bottom line is, simply put, that you are not required to have a French Language Proficiency in your license to speak French, but if you do not speak French, you do need ELP to fly in France. Read FCL.055 until you are convinced.
FCL.055 Language proficiency
(a) General. Aeroplane, helicopter, powered-lift and airship pilots required to use the radio telephone shall not exercise the privileges of their licences and ratings unless they have a language proficiency endorsement on their licence in either English OR the language used for radio communications involved in the flight. The endorsement shall indicate the language, the proficiency level and the validity date.
