Niner_Mike wrote:
I wanted to illustrate that I had to be aware of flying in Class G and that I could just not turn into Class D without extra clearance, while under an IFR clearance.
I don’t think this has anything to do with flying in class G. You could not just have turned into Lille airspace without “extra clearance” even if you were initially flying in classes A-E. Your clearance is valid for your current flight plan (indeed, in a very real sense your clearance defines your current flight plan). If you want to deviate from it, then coordination may be necessary.
In this case your current flight plan included the segment ARVOL-MAK-EBKT. You wanted to change that to ARVOL-EBKT. It really should come as no surprise that this will require a revised clearance which may not be immediately available and which also may not be obtainable from Brussels Info. It has nothing to do with clearances being terminated OCAS.
Airborne_Again wrote:
I don’t think this has anything to do with flying in class G. You could not just have turned into Lille airspace without “extra clearance” even if you were initially flying in classes A-E. Your clearance is valid for your current flight plan (indeed, in a very real sense your clearance defines your current flight plan). If you want to deviate from it, then coordination may be necessary.
Correct.
SERA.4015 Changes to a flight plan
Regulation (EU) No 923/2012
(a) Subject to the provisions of SERA.8020(b) all changes to a flight plan submitted for an IFR flight, or a VFR flight operated as a controlled flight, shall be reported as soon as practicable to the appropriate air traffic services unit.
@airborne_again I see your point. I try to contribute to the discussion with my example.
Peter wrote:
But the UK still pretends to be operating this principle that once you pass OCAS, you should expect the loss of the IFR clearance and the resulting loss of the entitlement to re-enter CAS later. Of course it suits the UK politically to do this because it is mostly Class G and if it was Class E+ one would be spending £££ on area control services, and UK ATC is mostly privatised, so this argument is circular.Does any other country in Europe do something similar? From my extensive flying around Europe I am not aware of one; you can become OCAS for a bit but you can always get back in, and mostly without any ATC dialogue.
Reading Annex 11 further explains how this is just a fundamental misunderstanding of clearances:
3.7.4 Coordination of clearances
An air traffic control clearance shall be coordinated between air traffic control units to cover the entire route of an aircraft or a specified portion thereof as follows.
3.7.4.1 An aircraft shall be cleared for the entire route to the aerodrome of first intended landing:
a) when it has been possible, prior to departure, to coordinate the clearance between all the units under whose control the aircraft will come; or
b) when there is reasonable assurance that prior coordination will be effected between those units under whose control the aircraft will subsequently come
But there is no guarantee here.
3.7.4.2 When coordination as in 3.7.4.1 has not been achieved or is not anticipated, the aircraft shall be cleared only to that point where coordination is reasonably assured; prior to reaching such point, or at such point, the aircraft shall receive further clearance, holding instructions being issued as appropriate.
If you are cleared to destination then it should be reasonable for you to expect you will be cleared all the way through. Otherwise you are cleared to a point where you might need to hold until you are cleared further.
3.7.4.2.1 When prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority, aircraft shall contact a downstream air traffic control unit, for the purpose of receiving a downstream clearance prior to the transfer of control point.
3.7.4.2.1.1 Aircraft shall maintain the necessary two-way communication with the current air traffic control unit whilst obtaining a downstream clearance.
You are responsible to get further clearance!
3.7.4.4 When an aircraft intends to leave a control area for flight outside controlled airspace, and will subsequently re-enter the same or another control area, a clearance from point of departure to the aerodrome of first intended landing may be issued. Such clearance or revisions thereto shall apply only to those portions of the flight conducted within controlled airspace.
And finally yes you absolutely need to be aware if you’re in controlled airspace or not since your clearance is applicable only to the portion of your flight within controlled airspace.
To summarize, you might get cleared all the way just merely on the expectation that coordination will happen all the way through but there is no guarantee, the clearance only applies to CAS so you must be aware when you’re outside and ultimately the PIC is responsible to get clearance if coordination did not happen.
I think this pretty much answers the thread question, what do you think OP?
hazek wrote:
If you are cleared to destination then it should be reasonable for you to expect you will be cleared all the way through. Otherwise you are cleared to a point where you might need to hold until you are cleared further.
AFAIU the problem in the UK case is that this does not happen. You only know that your clearance has been terminated by being handed over to a FIS position and not an ATC position or by being told to remain outside controlled airspace on short notice .
I have given up engaging with “hazek”. He is obviously an ATCO with encyclopedic knowledge of the most obscure regs but (on his own admission) not flying in the IFR system this stuff is just not practically relevant.
The answer to the original Q is practically NO except for flight OCAS (Class E for VFR, or G) which tends to occur in terminal areas (start or end of flight) and there you are “on your own” until you pick up the IFR clearance. And this is true everywhere.
Particularly for departures, Europe does not have the US “clearance void” system so upon departure OCAS you have to somehow look after yourself until you get radio contact etc.
AFAIU the problem in the UK case is that this does not happen. You only know that your clearance has been terminated by being handed over to a FIS position and not an ATC position or by being told to remain outside controlled airspace on short notice .
That is correct. But still the answer to the Q is NO except the pilot needs to know when he is OCAS. He does NOT need to know the airspace class in general terms.
