Fernando wrote:
I often think about this. Is it fair to say that, in reality, the raft won’t help most passengers?Please don’t get me wrong, I do carry one (after reading some threads in this forum). But I wonder if my two daughters could ever reach it if I became incapacitated.
Please recognise that I’m no expert on this! I have had one swimming pool training session many years ago! That does not make me an expert!
But from what I saw, it’s key to get into the raft from the wing. So no delays. If the aircraft if floating, then get in quickly. It will be much easier to step into it than to get in while swimming in the water.
It also seemed obvious to me that the lighter you are the easier it was to get in (the inflatable steps sank as people tried to step on them, so being lighter helped, and stepping closest to the main part of the raft to reduce the lever effect also helped).
The other point that quickly struck home was that each raft is different. They have different methods of entry. Some have ladders, some have steps, some have ropes that you pull yourself in with. I think it’s really important to know this information about your raft beforehand. You don’t want to be floating in the water, trying to get into the raft wondering how to do it!
boscomantico wrote: Do you carry a raft on such flights and have you done any training in using it in anger?
I have lifejackets plus a raft but must admit to not having any practical experience of using the raft, even in a swimming pool.
Stepping into the raft from the wing sounds like the ideal plan but it is probably wishful thinking.
With respect, having an I R is not at all relevant to having a duff engine over the sea. A properly used I R is precisely the panacea it promises, but like anything short of a teleportation device, it has some limitations. But not many.
Risk is something we live with everyday in many more aspects than most people realise. Consider the children and parents at that school in Wimbledon yesterday – about the most singularly tragic event imaginable. How we each handle risk is personal, as is the change in profile acceptance and indeed the rate of that change. It does get harder as we get older, and then you have the choice; Fight it or accept it. Personally I choose fight. I’ve seen first hand how age brings a risk aversion which leaves an old person clinging to a life never lived.
There are many perfectly good reasons not to do something. And that’s the choice. The reality is it’s not a choice between risk and no risk – choosing to, for example, fly commercial, just means you’ve abrogated your risk management to third parties. And in the process are in the illusion that all risk is nullified.
I can’t give you advice as I’m certainly not qualified and I have no idea of your capacity and ability, but all I will say is this. If I were advising my children, for whom I would give my life in a millisecond, I would tell them to get on with it. But they would already know that.
The DR400 will float if ditched, not crashed. You should be able to launch the liferaft and step into it.
I watched a RAF guy struggle to get into a liferaft in a choppy sea. Several times he capsized after getting in. The helicopter didn’t pick him up until he had succeeded.
Then the winchman dropped off the rope, swam to raft, got in easily, and was left to drift ashore.
(Training offshore my home.)
Just two comments here:
1) do NOT buy the self-inflating yachting life vests, as they may trap you in the cockpit
2) a life raft without a ladder is ballast, nothing more. Unless you’re a trained rescue swimmer or similar, you will not get into it if it doesn’t have a ladder.
a life raft without a ladder is ballast, nothing more. Unless you’re a trained rescue swimmer or similar, you will not get into it if it doesn’t have a ladder.
That is seriously not true. One of the key factors is to not throw a raft into the sea and try to swin after it.
The problem with rafts with ladders is that they tend to be huge and only a gorilla will be able to reach over to the back seat and retrieve it. IMHO the ~10kg ones represent what most people can deploy in a hurry.
The DR400 will float if ditched
This may be true but only if it has empty tanks, or the engine broke off, which is probably why it went down in the first place 
If you look at the empty weight it is obviously impossible for it to float in normal circumstances.
Now you may have noticed this in yourself, that as you get older, you become more risk adverse so I’m thinking about my passenger in the RH seat who is not a pilot and trusts me to know what I am doing.
The topic here – increasing aversity to risk as one gets older – is a serious one. I am finding the same, although for me it is more in the form of refusing to deal with hassle. I had it on my list to start a thread on this but it’s just been done for me
I’ve just had a nice day trip to LFAT but it was a “salvage” of a 2 day trip with Justine to Alderney. That one was scrapped because tomorrow is bad wx, but there was no way to review the wx today and turn Alderney into a one day trip because the bloody 12hr GAR for the return flight today could not be filed today! It is stuff like that which increasingly gets to me, and aviation is filling up with this crap. Covid was the last straw for so many.
But also we have better wx tools and they often cause a cancellation because the information presented is of necessity pessimistic. In the old days one looked at an MSLP chart and if it looked clean, and a few other things, it was ok to go. But now you have windy.com which is pretty good but it tells you a lot of stuff which is actually probabilistic and in reality one would deal with when airborne as a part of the normal pilot flight management process.
Very interesting topic.
Two factors mainly played into my increased risk aversion when flying SEPs, age not being the main factor:
- Having a family with a little daughter and another one on the way
- Having a job flying a jet in an AOC in a professional environment
The former is a natural instinct I would say. The latter, at least in my case, comes through inevitable comparison on how I operate these two very different aircraft. By no means I’m saying one way of operating makes sense and the other doesn’t. I’m also completely against trying to operate a SEP in a “professional” way, it wouldn’t make sense.
However, I would say being able to fly through known icing by just pressing the WING A/ICE button or outclimbing the weather with ease can make one overly comfortable and confident. As I’m aware of this I guess my reaction is to be much more conservative when flying SEPs.
I think this is a big factor among people who people give up at the 20 year point which I’ve noticed is responsible for the loss of many pilots. Why 20? You start flying when the “stars” line up (time + money) which tends to be about 40 years of age, and then at 60 you don’t like the risks very much.
I would say being able to fly through known icing by just pressing the WING A/ICE button or outclimbing the weather with ease can make one overly comfortable and confident.
Sure, but you would not fly that mission profile in a GA plane anyway – unless it was a full-TKS FL250 one, etc.
I agree with @pig in his post 13. I’d also say that it’s quite irrational, this risk aversion when getting older. One should be risk averse when young while having a complete live ahead of you. I guess it’s another piece of evidence that we are not as rational as we like to think we are. I will not fall for this. Going back from MEP to SEP and happily continue to cross the Med is my case in point. Of course with vests, raft, PLB and looking for ships along the way. Not looking to carelessly throw away my last 25% or so.
My family would be nicely taken care of and while they (and others) may not like losing me, they also know that I would have left them doing the the thing I loved to do and my happiness would not be the same without it.
Of course I will tell a pax of the risk involved in flying. And even tell them that statistically it’s about as risky as motorcycle driving, add some for a sea crossing. And then tell them that it’s a great example how delusional statistics can be. Flying a well maintained SEP with plenty of fuel, good weather, a healthy and careful pilot probably carries the same risk as being hit by a meteorite.
Spot on aart.
Risk aversion is very much an illusion
