Generally I agree with all the above. Flying in Europe takes some getting used to, but once you get the hang of it, it’s not too bad if you fly IFR. Agree 100% with the remarks re VFR. It’s fine for local bimbling but way too complex for flying-to-go-somewhere.
GA friendly airports that have very low fees compared to the US
Not sure about this though. The only US airport I know with fees, in my time anyway, was SFO, though I understand that all the Las Vegas airports now have high fees. I even landed a couple of times at LAX which had mandatory handling, around $40 iirc, but no airport fee. (And once even that got waived when I fell off the truck taking me to the FBO and they were obviously terrified I’d sue them). Maybe things have changed since I left three years ago.
By comparison, every airport in France has fees. For GA and low-traffic airline airports they’re reasonable, around €20-30 e.g. for Avignon and Beziers. But greater than zero.
Nothing has changed. I’ve a paid a landing fee at one US airport, Catalina, and overnight parking fees are often $5 or $10 per night, and nothing unless you stay overnight. You can choose to pay fees by parking your plane at fancy FBOs and not buying their overpriced fuel, but I’ve never found it necessary or desirable in my own plane.
IFR being a “simplification” is Orwellian. It should be a complication that’s necessary to fly in IMC.
johnh wrote:
Agree 100% with the remarks re VFR. It’s fine for local bimbling but way too complex for flying-to-go-somewhere.
How is it possible that I have a 100% different experience? How do you fly your VFR flights? Because if you would fly them like you fly your IFR flights (minus the clearance to destination of course) it works really very well. Surprisingly well. You get handed over from ATC to ATC or FIS and avoiding restricted zones is really not that hard when you plan your flight with Foreflight and route correctly/appropriately.
So I really don’t get that this would be that much different to the US.
Because if you would fly them like you fly your IFR flights (minus the clearance to destination of course) it works really very well.
But what’s the point? If I’m going to fly it like IFR, then I might as well BE IFR, meaning I can fly through clouds. Plus which, an IFR clearance is just that. VFR, all I’m getting is advisories, and if I mess up, it’s my fault.
So what I mean by VFR, is remaining generally clear of CAS. That may be easy in CH, but in France the airspace is a complete mess of military, random bits of CAS, restricted and prohibited areas… finding a route and associated altitudes that are sure to work is a real challenge, and very time consuming. I’ve done exactly one long VFR flight, when I ferried my now-sadly-gone Cessna down from Toussus to Cannes. I spent days worrying about the route, threading narrow corridors between various bits of possible-unavailable airspace. Knowing what I do now, I’d probably take a few more risks with the routing, but it’s still a lot of work.
Whereas IFR… enter origin and destination in Foreflight, click Route, wait thirty seconds or so, add SID and STAR as appropriate, send to Flights, adjust departure date/time and altitude, file. The whole things takes a couple of minutes. Coordination is a nuisance in the summer at Cannes, but that adds maybe another two minutes.
johnh wrote:
But what’s the point?
I thought the point was johnh wrote:
VFR. It’s fine for local bimbling but way too complex for flying-to-go-somewhere.
And I showed you how that isn’t true. Yes of course to fly-to-go-somewhere you naturally will have to cross CAS. What’s the problem with that? I mean every time I went somewhere to go somewhere I crossed various CAS. It’s what you do. Why would you look to avoid it??
It is true that when flying VFR in France during the week when the military zones are active, it can sometimes be difficult to find a path from point A to point B. Many are low level so you can fly over them. I have had to plan some strange routes to get through them once last summer, probably added 20 mins to that 1.5 hour flight.
My wife’s cousin flies the Mirage 2000D in France and he strongly advised me to stay clear of these areas. When they fly, they are focused on the training activity they are doing, flying very fast, and are not expecting to avoid GA aircraft, so the risk of collision is real. Not to mention if you cut through one of these zones without permission, you’ll get a visit when you land from the DGAC.
French ATC usually clear you through CAS (except the Paris TMA etc which IME is an absolute no-go below FL200) and a lot of the French VFR airspace would be unworkable otherwise; just look at e.g. the CAS map west of Nice.
There is a problem with CAS clearances though: what if you don’t get it? You should have a Plan B. In the UK this is absolutely mandatory; in these parts of France most flyers prob99 don’t have a Plan B because the chart is so hard to decipher.
But ATC will not route you through mil areas. We have done this before in many threads. French ATC does not like talking to the military at all and are sometimes clearly afraid of doing so.
As stated, IFR is much easier – everywhere in Europe. But VFR remains a useful tool in the toolbox, which is just as well since around 98% of European private pilots don’t have an IR.
If you have an IR, use it! You worked bloody hard for it. Make it work for you. It also makes ATC work for you and not against you which is the VFR default.
to fly-to-go-somewhere you naturally will have to cross CAS. What’s the problem with that? I mean every time I went somewhere to go somewhere I crossed various CAS. It’s what you do.
I think @johnh’s point may have been that while that is true in Europe, it is typically not true in the US even in busy areas, neglecting that your route is in Class E, except for (maybe) the departure airport Class D airspace and (maybe) the arrival airport airspace is too. Regardless of Class C or B along the route there is no need to transit those areas because you can go above or below them more easily. Therefore VFR is simple, as it should be, because you don’t have to talk to ATC at all. You can turn off the radio if you like for most of the flight, including in the busiest airspace GA in the world where I fly, although most people tend to monitor whatever frequency seems right as they fly along (maybe air-to-air or some Center) and Flight Following is worth using if e.g. your destination is a Class C or B airport – although that is usually not necessary or desirable.
Silvaire wrote:
I think @johnh’s point may have been
I think there’s no need to think what his point was, we just need to read his post:
johnh wrote:
Agree 100% with the remarks re VFR. It’s fine for local bimbling but way too complex for flying-to-go-somewhere.
This does not at all match what you think his point was. And he is wrong. You may be correct, but he is wrong. VFR is perfectly fine in Europe to go places.
And he is wrong.
Sorry, but I can’t possibly be wrong when I’m stating my opinion. If hazek or others want to fly VFR from Stockholm to Athens, that’s fine by me. All I’m saying is that for me personally, if I’m flying to get somewhere, I would much prefer to do it IFR. For sure it is much simpler. I have no idea why hazek is taking it so personally.
VFR airspace would be unworkable otherwise; just look at e.g. the CAS map west of Nice
Actually it’s not too bad once you know it well. But that’s kind of my point. When planning a serious flight VFR, you need local knowledge – where you can easily get clearance, where you can NEVER get clearance, and so on. Whereas IFR, you file a route, and do what ATC tells you.
Case in point – you can always (in my experience) get cleared through R95, the vast military area west of Nice. Just call 122.2 and ask. But you will NEVER get clearance through R138, just north of it. And R196, the even bigger area north of NIce, is active maybe three times per year, and then at night (by NOTAM). You just have to know. I’m pretty sure you’ll easily get into the Nice Class D north of Nice, at GA altitudes. But good luck getting cleared through the Class C overhead the airport itself.
SIlvaire is right that in the US, apart from the immediate vicinity of a controlled airport, you never need to talk to anyone. Personally I much prefer to, but it’s all very casual and easy. Whereas if you just look at the airspace around Nice, it’s a complete mess of random altitudes, classes and shapes.
