I don’t understand what you are getting at Ibra.
Circling to land is an IFR procedure which requires a visual reference. In the same way as a visual approach is an IFR procedure on visual references.
There is nothing stopping you cancelling IFR and making a VFR approach to Le Touquet or Grenoble if conditions allow. In which case you follow the VAC but without ATS or another form of information as to runway in use, you must integrate from the vertical having checked out the windsock for yourself.
There is nothing stopping you doing an IFR approach to an altitude above circling minima. The rule is minima or above. You might therefore circle to land at VFR circuit altitude or even above. However, as you have not cancelled IFR you are still flying IFR and therefore follow the information on the IAC and not the VAC.
Any debate on whether this is safe not safe against regulations, anti SERA or whatever is unimportant.
If it goes against SERA or EASA it is for them to take it up with the DGAC.
Whether it is unsafe or not is a matter of opinion as the DGAC makes the rules. Its a bit like those who argue that there should be no speed limit on motorways. Or the often quoted Brit statement that if you dont drive on the left you drive on the wrong side of the road.
On the one side you have the opinion of a few unqualified people and on the other side you have a body responsible for making the regulations and could take away my licence or penalise me in other ways should I break those regulations.
Whose opinion on the rules do you think I’m going to follow?
gallois wrote:
I don’t understand what you are getting at Ibra.
I think it’s obvious if we take a concrete example and stop talking about concepts
Ok you are cleared on LFAT ILS13 with no one in the tower,
- You have QNH from Lille and decided to do instrument circling at 570ft amsl decision altitude to the south as per instrument plate
- You check runway state and signal square area from overhead and join visual circuit to the north at 570ft amsl as per visual plate
You hit the wind turbine over Etaples and you are dead, are you IFR or VFR?
PS: you have left Lille ATC frequency and ILS/LOC path and you are Air-to-Air on tower frequency, “cancelling IFR” is done in your head anyway…
My point if someone “professional” or “amateur” designs a procedure for you to fly, you better cross-check it yourself (which is what you do with your homemade straigh-in, you look closely how much margins you have, flying as per the above you are not protected vis-a-vis ground & obstacles)
Ibra wrote:
You hit the wind turbine over Etaples and you are dead, are you IFR or VFR?
VFR because everyone can see you and you’re not connected to the instruments because you’re dead before reaching the hospital where somebody eventually could plug you in 
gallois wrote:
There is nothing stopping you doing an IFR approach to an altitude above circling minima. The rule is minima or above.
A circling approach (although it is visual) is an IFR procedure until landing – there is no need to cancel IFR at all. If you fly it, however, until landing, you necessarily at some point in time need to descent below the published circling minimum. And the question is at which point of the flight you are allowed to do so.
I have learnt that there are three criteria for doing so:
- You have visual contact to the threshold and can ensure to maintain it for the remainder of the flight
- You have visual contact to the ground and can visually ensure obstacle clearance for the rest of your flight (and you will do so)
- You are in a position to perform the landing without leaving the protected circling area
Before those 3 are fulfilled you need to stay at or above circling altitude.
Ibra wrote:
You hit the wind turbine over Etaples and you are dead, are you IFR or VFR?
This is exactly the reason why circling north of the field is not allowed.
I know but the rules in French AIP (ENR & GEN) does require you to go north under IFR, like it or not: in Roman land you do like the Romans, you have to join VFR circuit on it’s downwind after your IFR circling if no ATS in tower at LeTouquet…
It’s not a choice, the visual VFR circuit integration while under IFR is “obligaroire” in un-towred airfields in France
Again this is not a “cancel IFR” (say like you do going to IAP runway in Germnay without ATC or AFIS in TWR), you are still entitled to go missed on IFR MAP and take a deep breath in IFR hold, especially, if you have seen something you don’t like down there !
To stretch a bit, you could argue that under some circumstances, the French law does allow one to legally descend IFR bellow the circling minima (or go outside the protected area) starting from downwind of visual circuit when flying IFR without ATS…
@Malibuflyer you need to read whatbI actually wrote. I wrote that you have a choice you could cancel IFR and make a standard VFR approach using the VAC chart and the circuit marked on that. But as there is no ATS you 8would have to integrate via the vertical at a minimum of 500’ or more above circuit altitude.
You mentioned yourself that CTL is part of an IFR procedure but it requires visual references and “see and avoid” rules the day.
Why Ibra would go north and hit a wind turbine when the plate says it is not allowed is what I don’t understand.
I also don’t understand why descending is such a problem to you. You fly the circuit at circuit to land altitude, there are laws governing obstacles on final and within the circuit even on a VFR only field, or there certainly are in France. So in an MVL you are flying at an altitude at or above the circle to land without ATC, in Ibras example that is 570ft or 550ft MDH you have a minimum of 1500m visibility. The highest obstacle in an area that even a jumbo jet would fly a circuit at is 171 ft therefore you have a minimum obstacle clearance of 379 ft .
If you were flying a VFR circuit and you arrive on base at 570ft or 550ft AGL where would you start the descent to land. You are PIC its your decision nobody elses. And as a good PIC you will have studied the plates beforehand. You will have noted if you are now intending to land on runway 31 that this 171 ft obstacle will be around 1km to your left as you descend on final and of course with 1500metres visibility you will be able to see that. You will also know that in passing abeam that obstacle, if you are aiming to cross the runway threshold at 50ft you will be at around 200ft. I think all this should be well within the capabilities of any PPL let alone one with an IR given the visibility. If not they could always circle higher and land a bit further along the runway. Le Touquet has an LDA of 1700m.
I don’t understand what Ibra is arguing in the final para.
@gallois are you aware of the high obstacles north, it’s 812ft agl way above the 550ft MDH? can I ask a simple question: assume you are in the planning phase, QNH will be given by Lille, what is lowest cloud ceiling you want to see in TAF at ETA to fly ILS13 to LeTouquet without ATS?
500ft agl? 550ft agl? 812ft agl? 1000ft agl? 1500ft agl?
It’s a really simple questionif planning, it has nothing to do with personal PIC choices, my answer would be 550ft agl but I will stay away from the 812ft agl turbines and obstacles (serious question do they generate wake turbulence?)
I have flown it in Mooney without much currency in the “circling business”, I decided to pull a safe one over water at 700ft agl (I am really not brave to try it over land): visibility was great and ceiling was bellow 1000ft, I think I will need lot of practice to try both South & North one day at 550ft agl with ceiling at 600ft agl…
Ah, you think VFR circuit is south? I am confused?
VFR circuit at LeTouquet is north, I had the impression it’s clear in VFR VAC chart, or probably I mis-read this and it’s actually South?
If VFR circuit at L2K is south then no problem doing IFR CTL at 550ft MDH and joining the VFR circuit to land on RWY13 while staying always in the south side, I will check next time when ATC around if overflying Macron house in the south at 550ft agl is allowed on downwind for VFR circuit…
Are people mixing up DIY approaches (which are normally straight-in and off topic for this thread) with DIY circling approaches (which is a slightly crazy thing to be doing below the published circling height, and which belong here)?
Half this stuff makes no sense to me.
We are not talking about straight-in DIY IAP, this is only about NAA IAP with IFR circling (while operating under IFR all the time untill the aircraft reaches the apron after landing or the hold after the missed), which countries would allow one to go out of the protected area or bellow the circling height?
Before descent to touchdown,
- UK, allows it for straight-in MDH before recovering to circle MDH at MAPT (also on “bad weather circuit” after IFR takeoff for IMCR holders but let’s forget about this one as we only talk about NAA IAP landings here)
- France, could allow this for IAP without ATS
- US, prohibited with/without ATS (NYCYankee,
and also no CTL on “ILS/LPV only”)
On descent to touchdown, I think there are a set of conditions but no exact answer…
