Peter wrote:
It is this Class E which UK PPLs mistakenly call “French airways”
Well, they’re correct. Those class E are airways by the ICAO definition of an airway. (An airspace shaped like a corridor.)
and post questions all over the place asking if you can fly there VFR
That only shows that they don’t understand that “airway” doesn’t imply class A. Which is kind of understandable if they have never been told that airspace classes are used in different ways by different countries.
gallois wrote:
There were occasions even then when you were vectored by ATC through a “P” zone.
Once when questioning an instruction from Nantes to cross the “P” zone at St Nazaire, I questioned the instruction and got told in no uncertain terms to do as I was told.
The problem is there appears to be exceptions to every rule and this one might be worth a call to ATC or to the owner of that space.
AIP has list of P-areas where you can fly through IFR with implicit ATC clearance (even VFR if you are on vectors in controlled airspace), it’s ENR5.1-1.1 (no Go for IFR) & ENR5.1-1.2 (you can go IFR), near Paris, you get fly through P25 on ILS25 to LFPN and Villa ZIT on IFR 07 departures, but when you have to be bloody careful with P23 (Paris zone1 
), the clearance is to intercept back course of the localizer, not 1 dot to the north (much easier to think north/south rather than left/right in IMC 
), 1/2 scale deflection is a lot !
PS: I was used to ask Lille every time I fly through ZIT north of Calais (as they do ask sometimes to switch to AA/TWR frequency before you get there), I think they had enough and told me once it’s inside their airspace
I do know a British friend who flew LPV there while on VFR FPL and without telling Lille, he got a first experience with les Gendarmes after landing…
My friend FB post, last year in Aug
This must be what Peter is suffering from in the Paris TMA
Most French Class E has a base of FL055/065, and goes up to FL120, above which it is Class D. This is from an old SIA chart
It is this Class E which UK PPLs mistakenly call “French airways” and post questions all over the place asking if you can fly there VFR
this one might be worth a call to ATC or to the owner of that space.
Yes; being in contact with ATC is always a good idea, but the lack of them saying anything (to VFR traffic) is no assurance you are ok. This is why I have never believed the “just plan a straight line and it will be ok on the day” posts. That strategy may well work in specific parts of France, and probably works a lot better with a French speaker.
AIUI Once you have a validated IFR flight plan and once it is opened, you are above 3000ft and in 2 way communication with an ATC you will be vectored to either avoid the “P” or given clearance to cross. It is my understanding ( and here I might be totally wrong) that once on your flight plan and above 3000ft etc you are treated in IFR as if you are in class E from a controller pov.
I am still reading up on all this myself as when I started flying IFR there was no Autorouter or Rocket Route and we had to plan everything on a map using airways and directs avoiding “P” zones and taking into account all Notams.
There were occasions even then when you were vectored by ATC through a “P” zone.
Once when questioning an instruction from Nantes to cross the “P” zone at St Nazaire, I questioned the instruction and got told in no uncertain terms to do as I was told.
The problem is there appears to be exceptions to every rule and this one might be worth a call to ATC or to the owner of that space.
Thanks for the references to the AIP.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Are you in controlled airspace below FL55? Eurocontrol will typically validate anything in uncontrolled airspace.
The area is in the Mont de Marsan CTR/TMA (D Class), or Biarritz TMA when Marsan is inactive, only from 0630 to 2300 local time.
I admit I was taking for granted the routes generated by foreflight or autorouter, and did not thought they needed to be checked for Prohibited area penetration…
Posts moved to existing thread on same topic
High likely any portions in Class G will validate unless it’s coded in some IFPS no go zone, it does not mean you can drive through everything as you wish because AR/EC does say so, you are responsible for avoiding P/R airspace under IFR OCAS (as well as terrain & traffic) and YOU have to check en-route NOTAMS
The P/R-area in airspace (like LFBM) you can get vectored in or cleared inside (if you have PPR or eligible to get in) or pushed away by airspace owner (if it’s not for you), just relax, inside controlled airspace it’s not your problem, in theory they can vector you inside down to 1700ft amsl !
If CTR is dis-activated by NOTAMS, I suggest you plan it like VFR, ATC may remind you that you have left controlled airspace and it’s on you
Although for P35 I doubt it’s “carte blanche” under IFR, see the list of P-area that you can cross under IFR with ATS clearance, most are P-ZIT with civvy ATC rather than P-MIL with military ATC !
https://www.dircam.dsae.defense.gouv.fr/images/Stories/Doc/MIAC2/miac2_montdemarsan_lfbm.pdf
jeff64 wrote:
So what do you think would happen if I file this route below FL055.
Would have I an amended clearance after filing ? before takeoff ? Would I be rerouted in flight ?
What would happen if I have a radio failure after takeoff in IMC ?
Are you in controlled airspace below FL55? Eurocontrol will typically validate anything in uncontrolled airspace.
Coincidently with the posts of @johnh abording the subjects of the military areas in France and especially in the southwest, I am planning an IFR training flight from Biarritz to Agen.
Both foreflight and autorouter proposes a specific IFR route :
LFBZ – BZ – LGH – AG – LFBA
LGH is a VOR/DME installed on the Mont de Marsan airfield.
Mont de Marsan is a military airfield currently hosting a drone squadron and a fighter testing squadron.
Formerly, it was one of the nuclear military bases hosting the Mirage IV A fighter-bomber.
Due to this specificity, there is a prohibited area (P35) centered on the airfield.
Formerly, the P35 was about 10nm radius, from ground to FL195.
For the last 10 years-ish, it was reduced to a 3nm radius, from ground to FL55.
What’s interesting, is that the proposed IFR route gets an eurocontrol validation even if filed at FL030, which would gets you right into the P35 .
I know some prohibited area are authorized to IFR penetration (The Golfech nuclear plant “P3” can be penetrated by IFR aircraft flying the runway 29 approach in Agen), but I don’t think each and every P area can be.
So what do you think would happen if I file this route below FL055.
Would have I an amended clearance after filing ? before takeoff ? Would I be rerouted in flight ?
What would happen if I have a radio failure after takeoff in IMC ?
Maybe I will try it, without actively flying it, just to see what happens
