CS23 is mostly about design certification standards, things like high wing load for IFR, I doubt there is anything about avionics there? mandatory equipment seems to depends on country or regulator, not in Part23 CS/FAR, load of people fly IFR in US without ADF & DME & ModeS & 8.33khz but will have mandatory ADBS, are these aircrafts not CS23 certified? or do we need ADSB to fly a similar aircraft IFR?
I found the list by accident following various links and wondering if a CS23 aircraft like the Elixir, the Bristell or the Dynamic OK might be the way to go for me.
Or whether I should just switch to ULMs and forget all about IFR flight. I have spent too much time during Covid reading @Aarts posts and thinking about the type of missions I might want to do in the future ;)
Ibra wrote:
CS23 is mostly about design certification standards, things like high wing load for IFR, I doubt there is anything about avionics there?
I can’t find the words “IFR” or “IMC” in CS-23. The word “instrument” appears in a few places, but none related to IFR, as far as I can see.
Yes I doubt they have specs for IFR or IMC (I think it was left open on purpose), but FAR23 and CS23 have “Day/VFR only limitation” but as I said it seems mostly to do with slow VS & light wing loading rather than flying instrumentatiom or avionic equipements (listed in NCO/Part91 & AIP)
The C152 is certified IFR under part23 and they do pretty well in IMC, I would not be worried about something as fast and heavy as PA28 to fail CS23 for IFR but the other “light aircrafts” like Elexir, RV, SportCruisers may get blocked when it comes to this
I have been RHS when a friend was doing ILS to Jersey in his “VFR only” RV at 160kts in VMC, I would need a new set of teeth to try that again 
The thread I was following links to was about the certification process. CS MEL certification specifications, but I just can’t seem to find the list now or on the Elixir website. But I did find a couple of dates on the documents, in the small print and one was dated 2014 and then amended in 2016 so it may well be that it’s totally out of date so I’ll keep trying to track down an updated version.
Appreciate the posts directly above refer to airframe certification which is slightly different, but I thought I’d post some info here about minimum carried equipment, especially navigation equipment required for EASA registered aircraft for IFR Non Commercial Operations when flying a fairly common type certified for IFR elsewhere.
Apologies for repeating what has been said above but it is clear that it is still very much misunderstood ‘on the ground’ in Europe, and I hope this will help someone avoiding costly unnecessary equipment installations. After several weeks of arguing I have been proven right but someone not as insistant as me might not have the same luck.
As been discussed above, what is key to understand is that since 2016 EASA rules now supersede local rules. However, very often, the local shops still think the old regulation apply. You still have guys in France talking about ‘classe IFR’ ie IFR classified on the CofA, which used to be the case in the previous millenium (VFR, VFR Nuit and IFR), and some shops in Germany still wanting to do an IFR signoff it seems.
I had an argument on that topic with an avionics guy in France who was insisting my aircraft (transferring from another EASA reg to F reg) needed two VORs and referred to a 1991 legislation which I knew was obsolete, and I was quite suprised when talking to him that he did not seem that up to date on RNP (ie GPS) approaches. You can call three different shops in France and you’d get four answers (I did). I even had an avionics guy near Marseille arguing an IFR GPS (GTN750 in my case) was only a supplementary means of navigation and not approved for approaches, when I said I’d much rather install a second IFR GPS than another VOR, especially as it keeps BRNAV. Full credit to more clued up shops such as SIBA and Aerodima who are much more up to date and agree that the requirements have changed and are now much more flexible.
The issue is that we moved from a very prescriptive text (you need 2 VOR and ADF and DME etc) to the EASA NCO.IDE which is worded deliberately to give flexibility but also is rather vague. I pointed to specific texts in the French AIP that you only need equipment as required for the route filed nowadays. ADF and DME are no longer specifically required. The EASA text does however highlight you need one means of backup should be available if one box fails, which may be an issue when you have a GNS or GTN, but actually even on that point it allows for ‘other contingencies’.
I have a GTN750, an ADF and DME. I have two 8.33 radios (GTN+Trig) and a Mode S transponder. My viewpoint is that the ADF and DME will back me up for approach in case of failure of the GTN , especially that lots of secondary airfields have kept their NDB but lost the ILS, so a VOR/LOC receiver would be pointless. In practical terms, and beyond the scope of the discussion but to point out I do have a safe alternative, I also have an excellent handheld GPS on the yoke (Aera) which would help me monitor the NDB approach as I would hate to fly one purely on the ADF but of course that does not fall into the ‘approved equipment’ category. The aircraft also has a G5, a vacuum AI, STEC a/p and Strikefinder + Golze ADL so not exactly underequipped for serious IFR.
I also pointed to that text on the French DGAC website:
L’arrete de 1991 ne s’applique plus depuis le 25 aout 2016
https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/reglementation-lexploitation-davions-et-helicopteres-airops
La Parties-NCC et la Partie-NCO sont applicables depuis le 25 août 2016, la Partie-SPO depuis le 21 avril 2017. Elles remplacent, pour les opérations relevant du champ de compétence de l’AESA, l’arrêté du 24 juillet 1991 relatif aux conditions d’utilisation des aéronefs civils en aviation générale, actuellement en vigueur.
Le règlement complet est disponible sur le site internet de l’EASA.
He contacted OSAC for clarification who said ‘not us anymore guv’ ’ contact EASA, confirming exactly what I’d been saying.
this is EASA’s reply:
Assuming that you refer to flight and navigational instruments and associated equipment required for operations under IFR, the correct EU regulatory references are contained in the Regulation (EU) No 965/2012 as amended.
You can find that regulation in an easily readable format under on EASA website the following link:
Easy Access Rules for Air Operations | EASA (europa.eu)
I recommend to use the online format of the rule under the following link:
Easy Access Rules for Air Operations | EASA (europa.eu)
By searching for the relevant requirement you will get displayed the pages with the text of relevant Requirements, Acceptable Means of Compliance (AMC) or Guidance Material (GM).
The relevant requirements applicable to non-commercial operations with other-than-complex motor-powered aircraft, which you may be interested in could be found primarily in SUBPART D: INSTRUMENTS, DATA AND EQUIPMENT; SECTION 1 – Aeroplanes.
Some examples of requirements applicable to operations under IFR are:
NCO.IDE.A.100 Instruments and equipment – general
NCO.IDE.A.105 Minimum equipment for flight
NCO.IDE.A.115 Operating lights
NCO.IDE.A.125 Operations under IFR – flight and navigational instruments and associated equipment
NCO.IDE.A.135 Flight crew interphone system
NCO.IDE.A.155 Supplemental oxygen – non-pressurised aeroplanes
NCO.IDE.A.170 Emergency locator transmitter (ELT)
NCO.IDE.A.195 Navigation equipment
NCO.IDE.A.200 Transponder
NCO.IDE.A.205 Management of aeronautical databases
You should review the flight and navigational instruments and associated equipment of your aircraft against the relevant requirements and AMC/GM, which were identified as applicable to your type of operations.
another reference in the French AIP on mandatory carriage (basically as required rather than being prescriptive)
2.1 Obligations d’emport pour les aéronefs en vol IFR
2.1 Carriage requirements for aircraft in IFR flights
2.1.1 Précision longitudinale
2.1.1 Longitudinal precision
Pour voler en espace aérien supérieur et dans certaines portions désignées de l’espace aérien inférieur, tout aéronef est équipé d’un dispositif de mesure de distance de type DME ou donnant une précision longitudinale au moins équivalente.
To fly in upper airspace and in some specified lower airspace sections, all aircraft shall be equipped with a distance measuring equipment (DME) or with a device giving a longitudinal precision at least equivalent.
2.1.2 Navigation en route
2.1.2 En-route Navigation
a) Equipement pour suivre des routes conventionnelles
a) Conventional air route equipment
Précision latérale
Lateral precision
Tout aéronef est équipé d’un système de navigation capable d’exploiter les informations fournies par les aides radioélectriques au sol balisant la route, ou d’un système de navigation équivalent, lui permettant, pendant plus de 95% du temps, de suivre l’axe nominal de la route sans s’en écarter au-delà d’une distance D, définie ci-après – cas des routes ou segments de route balisés par deux aides radioélectriques au sol, distantes de moins de 100 milles marins (NM) : D = 5 milles marins (NM) ;
- cas des routes ou segments de route balisés par deux aides radioélectriques au sol, distantes de 100 milles marins (NM) ou plus : D = 5% de la longueur de la route.
All aircraft shall be equipped with a navigation system able to use information from ground radio navigation aids installed along the route, or equivalent navigation system, enabling, during 95% of time, the aircraft to follow the nominal route heading and not to be off-course more than a distance D, defined below:
- for routes or route segments with two ground radio navigation aids, being less 100 nautical miles (NM) apart: D = 5 nautical miles (NM);
- for routes or route segments with two ground radio navigation aids, being 100 nautical miles (NM) apart or more: D = 5% of route length.
b) Equipement en espace B-RNAV ou pour suivre des routes RNAV
b) B-RNAV airspace or RNAV route equipment
Obligation
Requirement
Tout aéronef est équipé d’un système de navigation de surface de base (B-RNAV) :
- au-dessus du niveau de vol 115 ;
- en dessous du niveau de vol 115, sur les routes désignées RNAV.
All aircraft shall be equipped with a Basic Area Navigation System (B-RNAV):
- above FL 115;
- below FL 115, on RNAV-defined routes.
Exemption Exemption
Les aéronefs d’Etat sont exemptés de cette obligation. Ils se conforment alors à des procédures particulières établies avec l’autorité compétente des services de la circulation aérienne. State aircraft are exempted from this requirement. Then, they shall comply with special procedures defined with the ATS competent authority.
2.1.3 Procédures de départ, d’arrivée, d’attente et d’approche aux instruments
2.1.3 Instrument departure, arrival, approach and holding procedures
a) Généralités
a) General
Tout aéronef dispose des équipements de bord lui permettant d’exploiter les informations fournies par les moyens radioélectriques et/ou satellitaires sur lesquels est établie la procédure suivie.
Toutefois, certains équipements de bord permettant d’exploiter les informations fournies par des moyens radioélectriques peuvent être remplacés par des systèmes RNAV lorsqu’il a été montré que les performances de ces derniers répondent à des critères de substitution portés à la connaissance des usagers par la voie de l’information aéronautique.
All aircraft shall be equipped with the appropriate equipment, enabling information to be used from radio navigation and/or satellite aids for which the required procedure is intended.
However, some equipments on board enabling information to be used from radio navigation aids can be replaced by RNAV systems when it was shown that the performances of these last ones comply with criteria of replacement notified to users by the way of the aeronautical information.
b) Procédures RNAV
b) RNAV procedures
Pour suivre une procédure RNAV de départ (SID), d’arrivée (STAR), d’attente ou d’approche aux instruments (segments d’approche initiale, intermédiaire et interrompue finale), tout aéronef est équipé d’un système de navigation de surface RNAV conforme à la spécification de navigation requise et portée à la connaissance des usagers par la voie de l’information aéronautique.
To follow RNAV procedures for departure (SID), arrival (STAR), holding pattern and instrument approach (initial, intermediate and final missed approach), all aircraft shall be equipped with an Area Navigation System RNAV complying with the required specification of navigation notified to users by the way of the aeronautical information.
La procédure RNAV publiée peut requérir que la performance du système RNAV soit accomplie à l’aide de capteurs spécifiques (ex : GNSS ou DME/DME/IRU). The published RNAV procedure can require that the performance of the RNAV system is realized by means of specific sensors (ex: GNSS or DME/DME/IRU).
Dans tous les cas, les procédures publiées comme étant utilisables en RNAV-1 et en P-RNAV excluent les aéronefs autorisés P-RNAV avec capteur VOR-DME uniquement.
In every case, procedures published as available for RNAV-1 and for PRNAV exclude aircraft authorized for P-RNAV with only sensor VORDME.
Pour suivre une procédure d’approche RNAV(GNSS) (initiale, intermédiaire, finale et approche interrompue), l’aéronef doit être équipé d’un système RNAV(GNSS) certifié conforme à la spécification RNP (APCH) du “Manuel de la navigation” fondée sur les performances (PBN) de l’OACI (Doc 9613).
To follow a RNAV approach procedure (GNSS) (initial, intermediate, final and missed approach), the aircraft must be equipped with a RNAV system (GNSS ) certified in compliance with the RNP specification (APCH) of the “Manual of the navigation” based on performances (PBN) of the ICAO (Doc 9613).
I think we might need to catch up over a drink sometime gallois, as I read somewhere you are based at LFFK? I have used the excellent maintenance organisations there for over twenty years!
That would be great, let me know when you are next coming here. Do you use FlyWest or Aero85?
