I considered the same idea for my plane, but over time came to the conclusion you’re better off putting in new avionics. Don’t forget to consider the cost of labor when looking at different options. Also, when you open up the panel, you might be in for some surprises as to the condition of older equipment and the quality of installation.
Airborne_Again wrote:
It’s doubtful — to say the least — if a blanket requirement for DME is legal. (Clearly it is if there is a procedure that specifically requires DME.)
SERA has a clause that airspaces might require certain additional equipment. In Germany, the DME for IFR is an airspace requirement. However, nobody care about it, there are lots of IFR operated aircraft without DME and there has never been a hint about repercussions.
Most of these “minimum IFR upgrade” projects end with big disappointment. Been there, done it.
The phrase “airspace requirement” in the rule was written with aspects like PBN nav specs in mind. It was never intended to allow states to create shopping lists of what is required in their entire FIR. That said, I’m sure many states would rather use it as an excuse than spend the time to update their national law and AIPs.
That’s is exactly what I thought about it as well.
However, you won’t believe the stubbornness of the German BAF (Air Traffic Control Agency). There was in interview with two of their bureaucrats in the fliegermagazin this spring. T you won’t believe some of the stuff they sais there, presumably whilst keeping a totally straight face. They really believe they have carte blanche to define whatever they want in terms of equipment. Hence, the FSAV is still out there and they have no intention of changing it.
Actually, the term “airspace requirement” says it all. Otherwise, they should have written “policy requirement”, but they did not.
TB20 IFR equipment – Part NCO vs Flight Manual
I fly an early (1983) G-reg TB20 that is placarded ‘Flight Conditions: Day and Night VFR’. I’m trying to figure out what, if anything, needs to be done to be able to remove the placard and fly legally under IFR.
I understand that the equipment requirements for IFR are set out in Part-NCO. The aircraft meets those requirements, provided that OAT displayed on a GTX 328 transponder (connected to an external probe) satisfies the requirement for a certified OAT indicator. So far so good.
However the ‘Approved Operations Capability’ section of the TB20 TCDS points to a different list of required items for IFR in the Aircraft Flight Manual. Some of these items we don’t have, e.g. a handheld microphone, an ‘installed’ stopwatch, and a placard saying the aircraft is approved for IFR. I’m also led to believe that OAT displayed via the transponder does not satisfy this list of requirements, ostensibly as the GTX 328 is only certified as a transponder and not as an OAT indicator, and because it differs from the TB20’s original certified design. I have no idea whether this is true or not.
My questions are:
I appreciate that in reality this is all a bit theoretical. The problem is that ultimately I’d like to get the GNS430 box in the aircraft approved for RNAV approaches with the appropriate flight manual supplements, but have been told that is a non-starter if there are issues with the aircraft’s basic legality for IFR. Any pointers would be very much appreciated.
imperialsam wrote:
Do we have to comply with both lists of equipment: Part NCO and the Flight Manual/TCDS?
Yes. Part NCO is law, and the Flight Manual states the conditions for the aeroplane’s IFR type certification to be valid.
imperialsam wrote:
I’ve heard it said that Part NCO supersedes older IFR equipment carriage requirements, but that seems a bit too good to be true.
If you by “older IFR equipment carriage req” refer to various national rules about ADF, ILS, DME etc., then yes, those rules are overruled by Part-NCO. That is both good and true, but whether all national authorities accept that completely, I have no idea.
imperialsam wrote:
exactly how we satisfy the requirements
AMC & GM to NCO.IDE is a good place to start. E.g. one of the AMC’s to NCO.A.120 states: A means of measuring and displaying the time in hours, minutes and seconds may be a wrist watch capable of the same functions.
By older IFR equipment carriage requirements I really meant the nearly 40 year-old stuff in the flight manual, some of which (e.g. the handheld microphone) seems like an anachronism today. But it sounds like those requirements still stand, and it’s the various national rules that have been superseded.
AMC & GM to NCO.IDE is a good place to start. E.g. one of the AMC’s to NCO.A.120 states: A means of measuring and displaying the time in hours, minutes and seconds may be a wrist watch capable of the same functions.
I had seen that too, but assumed that a wristwatch is only acceptable as far as Part-NCO is concerned, and not much help in satisfying the Flight Manual requirements which specially call for the equipment to be ‘installed’. But I’m not sure – maybe that AMC can be applied more broadly?
Thanks for the reply.
Still, something doesn’t add up. Why does the placard in the aircraft restrict it to VFR?? The TB20 is type-certified for VFR and IFR. Normally, the placard reflects this. The placard is not made depending whether some equipment required for IFR is installed or not.
So, you need to find out why this was done. Likely some old UK CAA specific/invented thing. Static system related, maybe?
imperialsam wrote:
But it sounds like those requirements still stand, and it’s the various national rules that have been superseded.
I am afraid that you are right.
imperialsam wrote:
Some of these items we don’t have, e.g. a handheld microphone
I found one like these in the backseat pocket of an IFR certified C172, I understand where it comes from (it was not connected 
)
Having a placard in the aircraft that restrict a TB20 to VFR is very odd but cloud come from aircraft training history (no IR/IMC courses?) or past avionics issues (no com2?)
I have seen no “night flying/no cloud flying stickers” on few rental aircrafts but that seemed obvious as lights or gyros were U/S…
