Timothy wrote:
If only life were that simple. Some of us fly with a paymaster or chief pilot in the other seat. It is easy to be glib, but much harder in practice.
That of course is a CRM command gradient issue. It isn’t easy but it must be managed..
Anything that increases the number of other pilots/aircraft in the mix tends to increase the bravado. Be that a fly out, fly in or travelling to or from one. Pilots being the flawed egocentrics that we generally are, are very susceptible to pushing on in the company of others or showing their stuff for a crowd. I sat and thought of so many accidents where these forces were at play. Some of them fatal, some were just lucky.
- People on ground watching… I’ll show them
- Other people made it to the fly in… I’ll get in
- Other people landed at this place… so why can’t I
The most famous example over here, albeit some years ago, where a flying club were having a fly out to an event at a short strip in Cork and one club plane overruns the strip. The next plane lands long then crashes into the first plane. Guy who was up a tree taking photo of first plane crashed gets knocked out of tree by second plane. The next day a third plane crashes on way home and three people were lost, closing a nearby airfield as they were the airfield owners onboard.
I know if our club were having a fly out, it would be the bravest version of me in attendance. Which is wrong really on so many levels. Admitting it is the first step 
Most clubs in France organize club trips. They are mostly day trips about 150 nm away (not a week to Croatia )
The guy organizing the trip is usually not a FI. Most FIs avoid these trips.
On a typical trip, 6 to 10 people subscribe and take 3 or 4 aircraft.
For the organizer and maybe one other pilot (plain PPLs but current) , this is not a big trip.
For the others, this flight seems a serious undertaking and they would not do it by themselves. They just fly local flights in the same area they know by heart with the same airplane they know quite well. They subscribed to the trip because it gives a (false to me) sense of safety to be in a group. They expect that radio and flight prep will be eased by the others.
So when the day comes, the organizer has a big responsability. He has no official duty but as the most “capable” and only autonomous pilot of the group, he has to manage his comrades and their lack of currency. He really must not put his group in a situation that would exceed their capacities (marginal weather, any diversion eetc..)
That’s when problems can occur :
Some may think I exaggerate, but I really think I do not.
Steve6443, in your example, all pilots (or at least crew) make their own risk assessment and take their decision autonomously. This is a great group of pilots, in the spirit of our fly-ins. But in our clubs, this is not feasible.
In the case of this thread, they were headed to Malta so I guess they were all experienced travelers that had crossed the Alps before.
Jujupilote wrote:
n the case of this thread, they were headed to Malta so I guess they were all experienced travelers that had crossed the Alps before.
While I have no way of knowing, given what fate befell them I strongly doubt your assertion.
I am not sure what experience one needs to cross the Alps while touring appart from aircraft performance, oxygen and load of terrain/vmc margins?
Obviously if you want to do it in Cub-style you need lot of hand on, mountain training and luck…
One sure thing is that this area can be very tricky, wind can take you down very rapidly if you get too close from the relief, and if there is no rotors. Saint Crepin is also known for quite challenging even if it’s down of a large valley. You have to turn left 30° just after takeoff to avoid down winds that could get you CFIT.
And when it’s convective, CB builds in hours. So if you takeoff at 10 north of the alps in a TMG with clear sat images, you can finish in a CB just after passing a pass.
if you want to do it in Cub-style you need lot of hand on, mountain training and luck…
The 150HP Super Cub has a 20,000 foot service ceiling, and once held the category record reaching around 31,000 feet altitude.
31kft you will need some oxygen ;)
The 90hp Cub I fly did 6.5kft with 2pob and full thanks, I don’t know what service ceiling it has but 6kft should do for the Brenner pass on calm days?
The highest I went on a Mooney is 8kft (book says 19kft), I am testing it on flat land/sea next month and will report but another trusted pilot told me it did 15kft on MTOW in summer…
I got stuck at 7000ft with C172 at MTOW on the way Bergerac to Cerdanya, it did took me 30nm on flat land to realise it was not the right time of the day for it (weather ahead was not good neither), it did took one day on the ground to finally confirm it is not “another engine issue” and later to make it to destination, then took litterally 6 months to get it to barely 12kft on cold winter days (what a DCT route needs), funny enough, by comparaison the “Rotax TMG” does 12kft (poh says 16kft)
For practical ceiling, I guesa one just need to figure out the reference point by himself: you need a lot of patience to replicate those POH figures (+infinite money in some optimistic cases)
Jujupilote wrote:
Steve6443, in your example, all pilots (or at least crew) make their own risk assessment and take their decision autonomously. This is a great group of pilots, in the spirit of our fly-ins
Well, IMO it’s the only way to do it. The only “organization” is to pick a place and a time, and those who wants to go, they go. My club will make a trip this weekend (if weather permits). It’s an easy trip that many have done before, but it’s fun flying/travelling together Much more fun that travelling alone to some obscure place for no good reason, and that’s why people like it. Just like fly-ins I guess.
