On the same topic, I flew to Lido last weekend, routing via Innsbruck and the Brenner. Due to clouds, I asked for and was cleared to FL120; due to IFR procedures at Bolzano, I was cleared direct VIC. I then asked the controller to confirm I was cleared into CAS and after a few seconds, he replied: ‘Negative, remain outside controlled airspace’. I remembered the words on this forum and, to the amusement of my passenger, said ‘unable due to clouds’ at which point the reply was ‘okay, we’ll manoeuvre others around you’ and that was that. About 10 minutes later I saw a gap and descended….
Just wonder how many pilots, when being told to remain OCAS, decide to descend into Cumulus Granite….
Steve6443 wrote:
Just wonder how many pilots, when being told to remain OCAS, decide to descend into Cumulus Granite….
That isn’t the only choice, you can turn around right?
It is interesting that the system has potentially skewed the relationship so much in favour of the controller. Even the term “controller” suggests they are in control.
To be fair, the controller is responsible for coordinating a range of traffic, some of which may be on the verge of competance, some of which may be unfamiliar with local procedures, and some of which may be old hand professionals who could do it in their sleep. It is a mixed bag.
However, I suspect most of us need to remember it is a working relationship, and should be a truly beneficial one, in that most contollers know what is possible / best if only they were asked, and there is a declaration on the pilot’s part that some help is needed. I find on the whole over dominating controllers are in the decline.
I think sometimes there is a reluctance to verbalise your needs becasue we get accustom to the “stilted” language we hear most of the time. In fact I believe the less stilted approach in the US is better, and leads to healthier relationship between pilot and AT.
I have never really understood how any pilot could be scared of ATC. But perhaps it is more to do with personalities than flying.
For instance this evening I was flying the PA17 back to Enstone from White Waltham after going to Le Touquet in the TB10 (nice to meet up with Peter and Jean and the couple in the Jetprop who’s names I cannot recall) and there was a weather issue. As I passed overhead Oxford I could see that a big heavy shower under a CB was blowing towards Enstone and it was not something I would fly a fabric aircraft with no artificial horizon into. So I told Oxford what the situation was and that if Enstone was inaccessible I would want to turn back to Oxford and circle in their overhead, then if Enstone was not clear in 20-30 mins I would have to land at Oxford as the PA17 does not hold much fuel and I had not refuelled at Waltham. He was fine with it and very helpful, although in the end it was ok as the big shower blew to the north of Enstone.
I think the key thing was that I did not ask him, I told him what would be happening. Decisions stay in the cockpit!
Fuji_Abound wrote:
It is interesting that the system has potentially skewed the relationship so much in favour of the controller. Even the term “controller” suggests they are in control.
They are in control in controlled airspace.
You can negotiate or declare an emergency. But if not you do need to follow their clearances.
JasonC of course, but that was not my point.
Simply, my point was the very role of them being in control may make us inclined to forget sometimes to a) negotiate, and b) clarrify.
Today for example was a case of a large cat doing power checks with the jet stream passing directly across the runway. Fortunately I have unhappily seen this before so was immediately inclined to proffer was it going to continue through my take off roll. It probably would not have, but thats another matter. The point that the instruction to line up for departure had been given was easy to follow without question because it was given by a controller who must be “obeyed”.
JasonC wrote:
That isn’t the only choice, you can turn around right?
I think you’re missing the point. I knew that the weather south of the Alps was CAVOK. Over the Alps was a pretty much solid layer of cloud from around 6500 feet to FL 120. I was VFR on top. Why should I turn around just because Padova wanted me to descend below FL115 due to Class D airspace? Or do you think instead of saying ‘unable’, I should have just flown back to Innsbrück, there descended under the layer and flown along the Brenner at 6000 feet AGL, ignoring the request from ATC to avoid the area of Bolzano due to IFR procedures?
Steve6443 wrote:
I think you’re missing the point. I knew that the weather south of the Alps was CAVOK. Over the Alps was a pretty much solid layer of cloud from around 6500 feet to FL 120. I was VFR on top. Why should I turn around just because Padova wanted me to descend below FL115 due to Class D airspace? Or do you think instead of saying ‘unable’, I should have just flown back to Innsbrück, there descended under the layer and flown along the Brenner at 6000 feet AGL, ignoring the request from ATC to avoid the area of Bolzano due to IFR procedures?
I am just saying that you don’t know why they wanted you to descend and an automatic view that you should continue may not perhaps always be correct. My point is you were not unable to remain outside, you chose not to.
Fuji_Abound wrote:
JasonC of course, but that was not my point.Simply, my point was the very role of them being in control may make us inclined to forget sometimes to a) negotiate, and b) clarrify.
I agree with that.
IME, the problem is that sometimes ATC are simply wrong or unreasonable for no good reason.
For example you can get a clearance from one sector and while still in CAS in there, the next sector (which is joined to the previous one!) tells you to “remain OCAS”. I got that in Italy, and you get de facto similar cases elsewhere where ATC is really busy and short of doing some ridiculous 180 and a dive down, you can’t comply. Also sometimes they get really pushy due to “military airspace”; I’ve had a very assertive one in Germany, a more assertive one in Austria (trying to force me down from FL190 into obvious icing conditions below “due to a 737 coming up behind”… clearly a 737 cannot go above FL190) an extremely aggressive one in France trying to force me into some CBs because “the military commander is getting very angry”, near Biarritz. Most pilots would probably comply… and in the UK you must because if you bust CAS you get pursued nowadays even if there were some funny angles involving ATC service.
