mayday_allday wrote:
I do not support Putin or his war, but what can I do? How, for God’s sake, banning a russian emigrant living in Germany from flying a glider in German airspace would help Ukraine?
As many other people you are a victim of this war. Looking at others that have lost their jobs, their home or even their life, your impact is minimal but it is still there.
What you can do: Adress your request at those who are responsible for and that is the political leadership of the country you are citizen of. We do not have the time, resources and frankly also not the intention to do an attitude check on any Russian citizen to determine if she/he belongs to the “good or bad part of Russian population”. Yes, we accept that some of the members of the “good part” are negatively affected and yes, it’s unfair – but war is not fair.
And it’s not us who want the war but the Russians!
mayday_allday wrote:
I am pretty sure that what is happening is misunderstanding, the goal clearly was to target oligarchs, Russia-related business etc., not us.
No, it’s not – we do not want to have Russians fly. Fully aware that there are some where such a restriction would not be required – but rather err on this side than on the other. As long as people are killed in an aggression war, it’s not the time for nuanced reactions
Malibuflyer wrote:
We do not have the time, resources and frankly also not the intention to do an attitude check on any Russian citizen to determine if she/he belongs to the “good or bad part of Russian population”. Yes, we accept that some of the members of the “good part” are negatively affected and yes, it’s unfair – but war is not fair.
Sure we do. Russian individuals in general are not targets of individual economic sanctions, a very small list of people are. The ban on Russian flying is clearly aimed at airlines and bizjets belonging to oligarchs. Why else would the EU allow Russians who are professional pilots to continue to fly for non-Russian airlines in EU airspace!? The collateral damage on private flying in light aircraft by Russian citizens can be fixed with the stroke of a pen. It’s noting that takes “time” nor “resources”, nor an “attitude check”.
No, it’s not – we do not want to have Russians fly. Fully aware that there are some where such a restriction would not be required – but rather err on this side than on the other. As long as people are killed in an aggression war, it’s not the time for nuanced reactions
I don’t know what you want. But the EU has no problem with Russian pilots flying for non-Russian airlines!
1 post deleted. See the Guidelines.
2 posts deleted. See the Guidelines. Personal attacks are not allowed here.
Thread unlocked. Anyone posting personal attacks, especially the sort we have just had, will be removed.
Airborne_Again wrote:
The ban on Russian flying is clearly aimed at airlines and bizjets belonging to oligarchs. Why else would the EU allow Russians who are professional pilots to continue to fly for non-Russian airlines in EU airspace!? The collateral damage on private flying in light aircraft by Russian citizens can be fixed with the stroke of a pen.
In terms of Russian pilots flying for European AOCs there is nothing to fix – it is still allowed.
The challenge is that “Oligarch” is not a clearly defined term – neither is “belonging” a term that makes much sense when talking about flight operations. (E.g. Many of the “Bizjets” such “Oligarchs” fly do belong to a US trust). In personal GA there are many, partly very complex, ownership and operations structures that are quite difficult to differentiate.
EU has taken a simple and clear cut: If it is the individual person flying as an employee of an European AOC, then it is ok. If it is somebody flying for himself, then it is banned. Yes it leads to some collateral damage (as wars always do) but it is easy to communicate and implement.
It would take a very long stroke of a pen to do otherwise:
Flying a C172 might be ok – but is flying a Malibu also ok? A Jetprop? A PC-12? Is a CIrrusJet a “BizzJet” but a TBM not?
If you make an exception for flight students, how do you avoid that all of these “oligarchs” all of the sudden discover their love for flying and start flight training (obviously they do not need to save money and therefore don’t train in run down C172 but do initial training in a Citation. XLS that belongs to a US trust and is operated by a “flight school” on the Bahamas).
Again: It clearly is an unintended consequence that some people like mayday have to pause their glider training for some weeks or months – but in the grand scheme of things looking at all the suffering the Russians have brought upon Europe it is really negligible harm.
A US trust won’t help anymore because the FAA requires beneficial owner identification.
But when you are seriously rich, it is trivial to arrange your assets so that everything is owned by someone else. Even if you give it to your wife, AFAIK sanctions are ineffective.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Flying a C172 might be ok – but is flying a Malibu also ok? A Jetprop? A PC-12? Is a CIrrusJet a “BizzJet” but a TBM not?
To provide relief for ordinary Russian emigres, then a simple solution would be to exclude aircraft under 2000kg from the sanctions. No, it’s not perfect – some oligarch could still fly, and it will stop some ordinary Russian emigres from flying, say, a Baron – but it should work for the majority who we don’t actually want targeted by sanctions. Another method would be to maintain a list of sanctioned people, and let the rest crack on. The number of people counting as “sanctioned oligarchs” can’t run into more than a few hundred.
alioth wrote:
To provide relief for ordinary Russian emigres, then a simple solution would be to exclude aircraft under 2000kg from the sanctions. No, it’s not perfect – some oligarch could still fly, and it will stop some ordinary Russian emigres from flying, say, a Baron – but it should work for the majority who we don’t actually want targeted by sanctions. Another method would be to maintain a list of sanctioned people, and let the rest crack on. The number of people counting as “sanctioned oligarchs” can’t run into more than a few hundred.
The only solution which stops innocent people being targeted is the solution the US has taken: Make a list of those who are sanctioned and leave the rest in peace.
This seems a bit silly considering most oligarchs are unlikely to be piloting their own bizjets. They’ll have no problem operating their trust owned jets with non-Russian pilots.
dutch_flyer wrote:
This seems a bit silly considering most oligarchs are unlikely to be piloting their own bizjets. They’ll have no problem operating their trust owned jets with non-Russian pilots.
Exactly.
For example, German banks did it in the following way: the customers with russian citizenship are being actively asked to provide a proof of residence (German address and a valid German residence permit). According to German law, any non-EU citizen loses his residence permit if he leaves the country for more than 6 months, so having a valid permit means you really live here, not somewhere abroad, and then you are not affected by sanctions. EASA could go the same way and adjust the regulations saying that only pilots with russian citizenship and without residence in EU are grounded.
