I’m getting my plane back shortly and plan to test this theory with a trip to Biggin Hill for work. Having heard the concern about being handed to Info I was planning to just insist on holding onto my IFR clearance.
@dutch_flyer please do report back on how it goes!
If there is an LoA between French and UK FIRs it will be published somewhere in French docs. The country is too bureaucratic for it not to be, it’s just a matter of finding it.🙂🙂
dutch_flyer wrote:
I’m getting my plane back shortly and plan to test this theory with a trip to Biggin Hill for work
It should work for Biggin Hill at FL80 you will surely get handover by French/Belgian to LTC ATC then Southend Radar or Thames Radar, 100% guaranteed !
It’s when you go low IFR to no mans land like Headcorn, Shoreham or Stapleford where you are likely getting dumped to London Info
There was a stakeholder meeting many years ago that I can find on the internet.
Which states the following;
LILLE APPROACH CONTROL (Interaction with low-level airspace, LoA with NATS)
https://www.nats.aero/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/SE-England-Transition-Altitude-Consultation.pdf
SE_England_Transition_Altitude_Consultation_pdf
There’s a little bit in the eAIP;
1.12.1 Part of Lille TMA Area 7 – 1500 FT AMSL – FL 65 Class E Airspace (ATS Lille Approach).
In this part of the London FIR, France will provide Air Traffic Services to all aircraft between 1500 FT AMSL – FL 65 (inclusive). Procedures and communications will be as if this airspace was an integral part of the Paris FIR. The area is bounded by arcs of Great Circles joining in succession the following points:
503800N 0011500E – 504526N 0012800E – 504000N 0012800E – 503608N 0011744E – 503800N 0011500E.
Lille Approach has SFC-FL115 so should be able to climb you to FL80 as the London LTCC Watch Supervisor told me.
Lille Approach has SFC-FL115 so should be able to climb you to FL80 as the London LTCC Watch Supervisor told me.
That is very useful to know – thanks for finding that out.
1.12.1 Part of Lille TMA Area 7 – 1500 FT AMSL – FL 65 Class E Airspace (ATS Lille Approach).
That only refers to the following TMA bit out of L2K which is in UK FIR but managed by Lille ATC
Also it’s not rocket science to see that ATS routes hit a cliff from FL65 to FL95 on English Channel Airways (they are one way), while no one flies ATS routes or filed levels in LTMA as you get vectors & altitudes on tactical fashion by default but the base of airways is the clue of what to file & fly…
For Stapleford, on startup at LeTouquet & Calais I file FL100 and ask ATC/AFIS by RT (or when calling Lille by phone for IFR startup if no one in tower) that I want FL100 on SID departures to DVR & LYD by the time you get handed to LTC, UK ATC will start to bring you down for the dump at DET
Peter wrote:
That is very useful to know – thanks for finding that out.
I was actually with Lille ATC at FL110 just coasting out of the UK on the outbound, so there’s definitely an LoA like there is with Brussels and Amsterdam. I think the BE, NL, and FR corner has multiple overlaps. Out of the UK for Dusseldorf, I was with Brussels when over Manston, on the return routing via ITVIP > DET I was with London (Dover Sector) near Oostende.
Ibra wrote:
On startup at LeTouquet & Calais I file FL100 and ask ATC/AFIS by RT (or when calling Lille by phone), I tell them I want FL100 on SID departures to DVR & LYD by the time you get handed to LTC they start to bring you down for the dump at DET
My impression was FL80 is the max routing to London Airports Region via LYD SID? I think I failed a Eurocontrol validation for LYD DCT DET EGSG for FL100. Maybe it’s the FL80 that’s causing the problem because that was my level coming out of Kotritjk that dumped me with London Info in January and for the LFAT > EGSG.
From LeTouquet you have SID to LYD, they work from FL40 to FL115
N0130F040 LYD1Y LYD DCT DET
N0130F110 LYD1Y LYD M189 SANDY N57 DET
From Calais you have SID to DVR, they work from FL40 to FL115
N0130F110 DVR2G DVR L10 ITVIP DCT DET
N0130F040 DVR2G DVR DCT ITVIP DCT DET
N0130F110 DVR2G DVR M189 SANDY N57 DET
If you want +FL120 from LFAT & LFAC, you can force departures toward DPE/ABB then you will be handed to Rouen (Paris ATC), the other way around from LFAT direct EGSG at +FL120 is to make sure you fil up all PBN equipment in flight plan and inflate your DA40 rate of climb in AutoRouter, otherwise things bounces back 
From Koryritjk, it may get messy but I never flown IFR from there…
Ibra wrote:
From LeTouquet you have SID to LYD, they work from FL40 to FL115
I only needed FL80 for the crossing, FL100 would have been pointless and none of the STARs into Heathrow or Gatwick would be effected by my arrival. City arrivals/departures would be above me or similar level and having come in via DET before, I’ve had no major issues being integrated.
09, City arrivals will be above you and 27, you’ll be above City arrivals till either clear of the inbound traffic or north of the river, where Thames will descend you towards Stapleford.
From experience (forgetting all outbound departures, where 100% of the flights have allowed CAS entry) – ATC have pretty much asked me what I want to do and given it. They even let you change over frequency once they have issued a descent out of CAS (whilst your still in CAS).
I still think the issue is a procedural one or an issue with how the LoA works, rather than a political one of not wanting GA to access the LTCC area, because they’d be preventing Stapleford, Denham, Oxford & Shoreham etc
