RobertL18C wrote:
ulti stall training is to first indication only – entering a deep stall with a multi engine T-Tail seems to suggest a deep desire for the Darwinian award Scandinavian se
I’ve had to do full stall for my MEP rating in clean configuration.
First indication only for turn to base and landing configurations.
“Deep stalling” a DA42 is not one of those things I would put on my bucket list. Doing it at night with 40+ deg of bank towards the critical engine and a relatively rearward CofG is a rather intriguing instructional technique. It would have been interesting to see a data trace of how recovery was affected first time round.
…the first stall is usually flaps up, gear down (so you don’t become de sensitised to the gear horn) and recovery when instructed – in 41 years with an MEP rating have never had an instructor call for recovery in a full stall on a multi. The instructor has an incentive not to see the student apply full power in a deep or full stall, and then find power has gone asymmetric- hence treating MEP stall exercises with kid gloves.
My multi flying has been post the introduction of Vsse (single engine safety speed, introduced to stop the carnage of old skool Vmc demos). There are still yahoos doing old skool Vmc demos, unfortunately in some cases with predictable results.
RobertL18C wrote:
My multi flying has been post the introduction of Vsse (single engine safety speed, introduced to stop the carnage of old skool Vmc demos).
I got my MEP in 2015 and did have to do a Vmc demo during the skill test… I would need to see the exam form, but I assume it is among the items listed as required.
Dave_Phillips wrote:
“Deep stalling” a DA42 is not one of those things I would put on my bucket list. Doing it at night with 40+ deg of bank towards the critical engine and a relatively rearward CofG is a rather intriguing instructional technique. It would have been interesting to see a data trace of how recovery was affected first time round.
I think you would be in test pilot area, and I am not even sure why a test pilot would do it at night, and, during certification, would also be wearing a chute.
It is interesting the comments about the Shoreham accident, and the role of the pilot, but I would have thought this is far more a case where the instructor is on very dangerous ground because it seems to me so difficult to justify the procedure he was requiring his student to perform.
Vmc demo is done by the instructor as part of the MEP course, and all ATOs should specify that the demo is done to Vsse and not Vmc. It certainly isn’t part of the skill test.
RobertL18C wrote:
Vmc demo is done by the instructor as part of the MEP course, and all ATOs should specify that the demo is done to Vsse and not Vmc. It certainly isn’t part of the skill test.
We got a letter regarding this from our CAA (LBA) a couple of years ago. We are still allowed to to let the students fly the Vmca demo themselves, however the instructor is supposed to block the rudder with his feet once Vyse (“blue line speed”) is reached. The student gets briefed beforehand that he has to start recovery once running out of rudder – no matter if this is due to hitting the mechanical stop or the instructor foot. Works well.
And I stand my point again (have given up in the “stall” thread some time ago): Teaching proper stall avoidance from the beginning will stop this kind of stupid accident happen and make training as safe as airline transport. Hopefully.
I can’t really see what a demo to Vsse will achieve – “look, do you see how nothing is happening? That is because I am pushing the rudder really hard and am banking into the good engine. This is exactly like the climb ad Vyse you flew earlier, it’s just I am pressing the rudder MUCH harder, trust me.”
I certainly did mine to the point of loss of directional control, and flew it as a student. In the C303, you reach a point where you apply rudder and the aircraft starts to yaw towards the dead engine, and you need aileron to prevent a roll, and then you recover by reducing power and lowering the nose. All very gentle.
Same as with stall/spin characteristics, there are aircraft that are very hard to get a wing to even drop (PA28), ones that can drop a wing quickly but are easily prevented from spin entry (C152, 172) and (presumably) aircraft that are more comfortable autororating than flying S&L. One wouldn’t want to do initial stall training in one of those…
what_next wrote:
however the instructor is supposed to block the rudder with his feet once Vyse (“blue line speed”) is reached. The student gets briefed beforehand that he has to start recovery once running out of rudder – no matter if this is due to hitting the mechanical stop or the instructor foot. Works well.
Hey, that is clever! I will remember that if I ever become a ME instructor! The only thing that doesn’t do is give the full “braced against the seat back wishing I had gone to the gym more often” experience…
Cobalt wrote:
I certainly did mine to the point of loss of directional control, and flew it as a student. In the C303, you reach a point where you apply rudder and the aircraft starts to yaw towards the dead engine, and you need aileron to prevent a roll, and then you recover by reducing power and lowering the nose. All very gentle.
Not always gentle as you see with this accident. The loss of control is always due to running out of rudder. Whether you run of of rudder because of some piece of aluminium or instructor foot makes no difference at all. The student will not be able to maintain a straight flight path and has to react to that. Only that survival of student, instructor and aircraft is guaranteed. I like it this way.
