Peter wrote:
In France, and elsewhere, who knows their actual ROE? I have never come across an authoritative post. I bet anybody who actually knows the exact authorisation for shooting will not be posting it, but IMHO why carry a gun if you can’t shoot somebody with it? It can’t be just for self defence; that would be dumb
I am not in the least bit worried about being shot by a French policeman or customs officer. I don’t know their ROE, but I am pretty confident they are only allowed to use their weapon in case of serious risk to their own lives or that of others. France is a civilised country, after all. They will not be allowed to shoot you to prevent you escaping.
A policeman being armed does probably affect the degree to which they expect to be obeyed, and hence their willingness to issue ‘instructions’ without basis in law that they expect people comply with.
I’m worried about being detained, fined, etc.
Dan wrote:
Re the use of Mengen D, bit surprised about the negative comments… the place must have changed some.
Rather the other way around. My bad experience was in 2010. So if you had this kind of arrangement in the last years, maybe someone managed to sort the situation out there. Would be nice.
Re the use of Mengen D, bit surprised about the negative comments… the place must have changed some.
A few years ago I was the lucky owner of 2 aircraft. One I kept at my homebase, the other at Biberach a.d.R. So I got to use Menge regularly as a customs airfield to enter Germany. In the end we even had an agreement that had me call them on the radio 10 minutes prior to land there. They would then tell me if customs were present or expected, and then wish me a good continuation of my flight to final destination. Saved some Euros and time…
Guess that is history now.
Frans wrote:
Which airfield was that?
Speck.
Frans wrote:
Things beginning to change, as the old separation between unarmed customs officers and armed border forces are now combined in a new organisation, called: “Bundesamt für Zoll und Grenzsicherheit (BAZG)” since 2021. This means that Switzerland has just one official department, responsible for both immigration and customs, with also just one uniform (starting from 2025) and just the simple one name “customs” (starting from 2022). However, I don’t know if the new “BAZG” will also replace the cantonal police on the airports of Zürich and Bern-Belp.
I will ask once I get the chance, I know a few of them in ZRH once I get the chance. I understood that they are part of the cantonal police but get additonal training by the BAZG or whoever it was so far for immigration duty and basic customs. I understand it that if they get any sort of thing which requires specialists, they will call for re-enforcements from the relevant agencies.
I guess LFHN was right and missing a CTOT from an uncontrolled field doesn’t seem a big deal.
Relationship with law enforcement is one of Peter’s pet pieve so I will try to answer this.
The law (Article L435-1 Code de la sécurité intérieure) says (reverso translation) :
In the performance of their duties and wearing their uniform or external and apparent insignia of their capacity, the officers of the national police and the members of the national gendarmerie may, in addition to the cases mentioned in article L. 211-9, use their weapons in cases of absolute necessity and in a strictly proportionate manner:
1) When attacks on life or physical integrity are brought against them or against others or when armed persons threaten their life or physical integrity or those of others;
2) When, after two summons made aloud, they are unable to defend otherwise the places they occupy or the persons entrusted to them;
3) When, immediately after two summons addressed aloud, they cannot compel to stop, other than by the use of arms, persons who seek to escape their custody or investigation and who are likely to commit crimes, in their flight, attacks on their lives or physical integrity or on those of others;
4) Where they are unable to stop, other than by the use of weapons, vehicles, boats or other means of transport, whose drivers do not comply with the stop order and whose occupants are liable to perpetrate, in their flight, attacks on their lives or physical integrity or on those of others;
5) For the exclusive purpose of preventing the repetition, in the near future, of one or more murders or attempted murders that have just been committed, where they have real and objective reasons for believing that such repetition is likely in the light of the information available to them at the time they use their weapons.
So unless there are reasons to believe you will attack someone’s plysical integrity with you plane (like a 9/11 scenario), they 100% will not shoot at you
At the very worst case you would be intercepted and requested to land somewhere. You are in French airspace, France is allowed to force you to land (you already know that).
Don’t panic when you see holster, it won’t bite you 
These rules were even more strict for policemen (than gendarmes), which was becoming ridiculous given the level of violence they face today, and were harmonized in 2017.
I think all french know gendarmes are overall nicer and more professional than policemen but there are good and bad people in every group.
They are all trained not to use their gun unless the level of violence they encounter reaches sky levels, which happens more and more unfortunately.
Judges are extremely strict in the enforcement of police rules of engagement. Mostly they are young ladies who never saw a gun in their law school and have no clue one would need one until they loose half of their blood volume.
Peter wrote:
for the rest of your life if the last pp stamp shows an entry and no exit ).
More likely just until pp expiry, when you get a new (clean) one. 
For me it depends where you are – i.e. in your own country or not.
I agree, but that’s because we all know the UK works that way. We know their “rules of engagement”. If they don’t turn up, not your problem. It is how the GAR system works.
It might be “legally different” if you filed the GAR with an ETA of say 1500 and arrived at 1200, but IME nothing happens either even then although it could well be because they know my reg and know I am not normally smuggling contraband
In France, and elsewhere, who knows their actual ROE? I have never come across an authoritative post. I bet anybody who actually knows the exact authorisation for shooting will not be posting it, but IMHO why carry a gun if you can’t shoot somebody with it? It can’t be just for self defence; that would be dumb. And the aforementioned link is a scenario where I was leaving France, not even entering it!
This means that Switzerland has just one official department, responsible for both immigration and customs
That’s sensible, and reflects the reality of what gets checked – unless there is intelligence to the contrary.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I once landed on a PPR airfield coming from Germany, where we were greeted by 2 cantonal policemen.Which airfield was that? According to my information, immigration by the cantonal police is only done at Zürich and Bern-Belp Airport. Maybe some smaller airfields in these cantons are also checked by cantonal police? The airports of Basel, Geneva, Lugano, St. Gallen, Sion etc. are checked by the border forces. However, checks after baggage claim are performed mostly by unarmed customs officers, which aren’t part of the former “Grenzwachtkorps” (border forces). Things beginning to change, as the old separation between unarmed customs officers and armed border forces are now combined in a new organisation, called: “Bundesamt für Zoll und Grenzsicherheit (BAZG)” since 2021. This means that Switzerland has just one official department, responsible for both immigration and customs, with also just one uniform (starting from 2025) and just the simple one name “customs” (starting from 2022). However, I don’t know if the new “BAZG” will also replace the cantonal police on the airports of Zürich and Bern-Belp.
For me it depends where you are – i.e. in your own country or not.
If this happened to me in the UK, either arriving or departing, I would just leave. I know I’ve complied with my obligations under the law and I’m not afraid to defy the ‘instructions’ of the policeman / customs official, especially if he/she is not actually there. I’m also not afraid to argue about it afterwards, and the chances of them taking it to court are minimal, the chances of them winning even less.
In France I’d do as I’m told. It’s not my country, I don’t know the law, and I’m not certain where the limits of their powers lie. It may be that any instruction from such a policeman or official automatically carries the force of law. Plus I might want to go back some day.
Frans wrote:
. In Switzerland, you have the cantonal police, border forces and customs. While the cantonal police might do immigration and security checks at some airports, they are not allowed to perform customs duties. The border forces are allowed to do both (immigration and customs) as an official border protection authority, while Swiss customs is only allowed to perform customs checks.
I once landed on a PPR airfield coming from Germany, where we were greeted by 2 cantonal policemen. Apparently there are some who have gotten the “rating” for the lack of a better word to perform checks on behalf of customs and immigration at these airfields. On larger airports, there are border police who do both (as well on land check points) or they are physically separated (Immigration near the arrival gates, customs past the baggage claim.)
