maxbc wrote:
Maybe it should also insist on dangers of weather (“flying into any form of clouds, rain, or strong winds IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS”, period),
Well, it isn’t (not in the form of such a blanket statement at least), so it shouldn’t.
Yeager wrote:
I admit I could be wrong with regards to private GA flying!
I wouldn’t be sure it’s reserved for GA. On several occasions I met business jet crews arriving for flight with obsolete weather package (prepared by their operations) being absolutely clueless of current weather (pretty much different of their expectations).
Antonio wrote:
the cost-sharing nature of this flight had any relevance on the fatal outcome
Not established does not mean not relevant. It’s true that the two issues are separated (misleading “all-weather” ad on one side and bad decision leading to a crash on the other). But the publicly advertised nature of the flight may be relevant to the passenger victims, since they may not have been properly informed of the trust they put in the pilot’s personal decision making (as opposed to trusting an airline / operator’s safety procedures in commercial flight, enforced by regulation). The cost-sharing nature itself (to the extend that it was a disguised paid service – which it may not), could have been a factor towards mission focus.
However I agree that the thread drift makes it appear more important than it is ^^
Emir wrote:
business jet crews arriving for flight with obsolete weather package (prepared by their operations) being absolutely clueless of current weather
The latter is especially true in Europe due to the scarcity of inflight weather resources. Onboard radar and ice capability might lead crews into some complacency and not wanting to delay a flight awaiting an updated wx package, but that decision is entirely on the crew.
If anything, the light-GA serious x-country flyer in the EU tends to include Golze ADL as standard equipment. This easily places such a light-GA crew at a wx-knowledge advantage vs the jet crew.
The main advantage of the jet crew is they tend to have an ops department looking at wx remotely in the comfort of their desks and ACARSing potential actions to the crew.
Antonio wrote:
If anything, the light-GA serious x-country flyer in the EU tends to include Golze ADL as standard equipment.
IME, while Golze is very much a standard for any IFR pilot, it’s diffusion among (even the more advanced) VFR-only pilots is still minimal.
Years ago, I made some effort to get even those VFR-only pilots to get an ADL, but I think very very few ever got one.
Consider that all the recent crashes have been on VFR flights, by, as far as we know, VFR-only pilots.
The plane was equipped with an ADL, I‘m not sure whether he renewed the subscription or not. I gave the information to him
The thing is that an ADL is handy for serious hazard avoidance reasons only if you are in IMC, or in VMC and surrounded by IMC.
If you are VFR-only (as this pilot prob99 was) then an ADL is great for getting tafs or metars, or wx a long way down the route.
To find yourself needing an ADL above the Alps, as a VFR pilot, you have already screwed up big time.
I nearly bought a turbo 112 in 2002. It can do FL250 or so (not with 3 European-average passengers). But without oxygen is a bit like having your legs amputated at the knees; you can still walk but you are a lot shorter. He may have had O2 but I can tell you that cannula acceptance is not great, especially with novice passengers, not used to GA flight, where acceptance will be roughly zero.
gallois wrote:
I don’t accept that we weren’t taught meteorology and how to get the weather for a flight
Me neither !
I studied for theory with both mandatory online courses and offline “workshop” classes. For the theory exam I had to answer which kind of clouds are in which type of front, what different effect terrain has on weather, when the visibility is worse, likely to improve etc. During classes we discussed the different ways to retrieve weather sources (windy, official, etc.), we differentiated observations from forecasts. I don’t know what you’d want more. During flight preparations, instructors repeatedly explained to me why the weather was marginal (be it wind, visibility, ceilings, precip…), and sometimes asked that I print official weather reports to carry in flight (sometimes even print the whole thing – TEMSI, WINTEM, METAR+TAF), especially when not CAVOK. Also, I believe that for the PPL exam itself (I’m not there yet), if you fail to do a proper weather briefing or note a weather uncertainty (and come up with the subsequent plan B), the examiner is likely to twitch.
Even the official test questions make you indirectly drill flight cancelling when the weather is marginal. They expect you to answer “reschedule flight” when the TEMSI says “LOC FG/BR” or “V8 LOC V1.5/V0”. They expect you to know if the fog is likely to lift or not (depending on the time of day, of year, the wind…).
That people need to figure out how to travel themselves is pretty normal IMO.
he had no oxygen.
Emir wrote:
I wouldn’t be sure it’s reserved for GA. On several occasions I met business jet crews arriving for flight with obsolete weather package (prepared by their operations) being absolutely clueless of current weather (pretty much different of their expectations).
Interesting. So, these business jet crews proudly showed you their obsolete weather packages, so that you could witness their oblivious improper flight preparations before they headed out into the darkness?? Well that surely would be something else to witness – especially since it´s happened on serval occasions.
@emir
I´m curious though. Do you think it´s possibly that these business jet crews have iPads (and iPhones for that matter (AeroWeather etc.) with Jeppesen FliteDeck Pro X or ForeFlight (not familiar with this one) applications installed? I know it´s very hard to imagine that in 2023, so I just wonder if that would have been a possibility at all.
There are no OPS requirement for any paper printed Operational Flight Package if the operator has an approved Electronic Flight Bags (EFB). In other words, everything can and likely would have been updated on their EFBs (or other equipment).
BTW, I believe Business Aviation constitutes as part of GA – though I suppose in these forums, GA is commonly understood to be light category aircraft and helicopters.
