Did they prioritize “Practice Pan” calls?
I asked one who was higher in the ranks of D&D on a gliding event if PANPAN give wild card into airspace or traffic priority, he mentioned that only MAYDAY allow them to clear an aircraft through every piece of civilian airspace or runway with mandate to provide full assistance
If you state PANPAN, they have to coordinate with other units, you will be subject to delays and you wait until they can fit you in…
What other work did they have when they passed this aircraft to Exeter?
They still “own” (Emergency Supervision) mayday or panpan until that aircraft has safely landed or crashed
I think they are ordinary military ATC, but could be wrong.
D&D are military. They sit there in RAF uniforms. Various videos online.
he mentioned that only MAYDAY allow them to clear an aircraft through every piece of civilian airspace or runway with mandate to provide full assistance
If you state PANPAN, they have to coordinate with other units, you will be subject to delays and you wait until they can fit you in…
If that is true, that is scandalous, because it is never taught to pilots anywhere AFAIK.
Peter wrote:
he mentioned that only MAYDAY allow them to clear an aircraft through every piece of civilian airspace or runway with mandate to provide full assistance
If you state PANPAN, they have to coordinate with other units, you will be subject to delays and you wait until they can fit you in…If that is true, that is scandalous, because it is never taught to pilots anywhere AFAIK.
Peter, I’ve taught as the above. In general, if you PAN-PAN, then you follow the rules but it is urgent and you get priority; if you MAYDAY, then rules pretty much don’t apply, but the amount of paperwork after the fact increase very substantially.
I learned the same. With “pan pan” no one is about to die. So you get assistance but no miracles. With mayday the sky is yours, because you need it.
In this case someone noted the distress, and told the pilot to squawk 77. So this wasn’t a pan pan any longer.
In most of the procedures, CAA only distinguish between PANPAN and MAYDAY based on immediate danger not the nature of ATS support, both get assigned 7700 OCAS (or retain existing radar ATC code in CAS), I was puzzled with that answer: PANPAN is not enough for say airspace access or priority
The other thing with MAYDAY, it automatically trigger request to ARCC to get ready for SAR, PANPAN mostly stays between D&D or ATC, it does not trigger SAR unless one drop in a field or radio contact is lost
So this wasn’t a pan pan any longer.
Exactly. 7700 means only one thing, regardless of which other balls had been dropped.
“if you PAN-PAN, then you follow the rules”
I’ve only once “Pan-Pan”ed – to Shannon to say I was in cloud, which I wasn’t qualified to be in, in Irish airspace. Climbed out on top, flew to.visual with ground, diverted.
ATC were helpful. Let me climb into their airspace.
Airborne_Again wrote:
You mean an investigation criticised ATC?
Yes. They did not follow the procedures after an accident. According to the investigators they did not activate crash alarm. They did not direct cameras towards the accident site (I guess they have special cameras for this). The investigation bureau was not notified by ATC. It was the police who did it 1.5 h after the accident (by chance or police procedure I guess). They moved the wreckage before they notified the the investigators (which they didn’t, the Police did it). All in all, they didn’t react the way they should at all, and didn’t do the things they were supposed to do. Their focus was on getting the traffic moving again, which they did super fast.
I mean, to believe that ATC automatically reacts the way you would like them to react, is a bit like believing in Santa Claus. It certainly takes more than a Pan Pan to make them react.
This also leads to another thing. If by accident, or sheer stupidity, you get stuck above the clouds with terrible weather below, and all you know is VFR. Then it’s very limited what ATC actually can do to help you. The only thing they can do is to give you the direction to a place where the weather is better, at least below the clouds. That will still leave you in severely deep shit, but very dependent on your abilities and what instruments you have. Even if you only have VFR rating, you should have trained for maneuvering the plane in the soup, if you regularly fly on top for instance. The ATC did a very poor job, but it’s a bit difficult not to see this accident in the lights of pilot error IMO.
LeSving wrote:
It certainly takes more than a Pan Pan to make them react.
That airplane was squawking 7700. I would imagine ATCOs to understand the significance.
On a more general note – I would never, ever, use PANPAN. If you have a emergency, and this was one, then it’s MAYDAY.
LeSving wrote:
The ATC did a very poor job, but it’s a bit difficult not to see this accident in the lights of pilot error IMO.
Sure, but as I’m sure you know fog can form super fast and getting caught out on top can happen. Very nearly happened to me years ago – I made it through a hole, landing on the third of a runway that was not fogged in….
The ATC did a very poor job, but it’s a bit difficult not to see this accident in the lights of pilot error IMO.
That’s obviously correct. ATC is there to help to the extent possible, but what are they going to do for a pilot stuck on top in a strictly VFR plane except tell him if any nearby airports have clear METARs? Talking and communication only goes so far and I’d question the judgement of any private pilot who sees safe operation of his plane as a shared responsibility.
