Neil wrote:
In my formative years in flying there were several pilots who would occasionally venture up into cloud in their Ka6, Olympia, or Skylark. I don’t think I ever saw any AI, just a Turn and Slip.
Years ago I flew the Chipmunk in cloud. All I had was a turn and slip, and a hand held GPS. I only ever did it when it was absolutely necessary and I never liked it much. it was only to get on top, and in Scotland that can be a long way! Safer up there than scud running in the Scottish mountains was the idea. But I was young then, not the old scroat I have turned into 
CharlieRomeo wrote:
But in fact, even our club has one or two gliders which have “cloud flying” written in their type certificates, so you could use them. At least if someone puts the AIs back in there ;).
In my formative years in flying there were several pilots who would occasionally venture up into cloud in their Ka6, Olympia, or Skylark. I don’t think I ever saw any AI, just a Turn and Slip.
I am astonished by the fact that only TWO hours of dual is needed.
As I understand it, it’s basically an IR(R) for gliders.
I believe that glider pilots who engage in cloud flying are the ones who go distances (cloud flying is primarily to get high above the cloud base) and tend to have the “position fixing using GPS and aeronautical charts” (look at the moving map) and “position estimating using DR” down pat. They use their wit and skills do go hundreds of miles just powered by the lift the air can provide – which isn’t easy and a true “air sport” (wistful sigh – I wish I could to that)
And they fly their aircraft with a precision rarely seen in powered flying, nailing the right speeds and bank angles are crucial to how far they can go.
So given that they are used to maintaining speed and bank precisely, all they need to do is fly by looking at TWO instruments (ASI and a turn indicator or somesuch), and for the rest they rely on skills they are already good at. Altitude keeping does not apply, nor does sticking to a magenta line.
This is vastly different from powered IFR, where after a few hours learning how to fly with reasonable precision on instruments a whole new set of ways to navigate, talk to ATC, etc. has to be learned, involving spending hours on arcane historic procedures (NDB holds, anyone) no glider pilot will have any need for.
Airborne_Again wrote:
The relevant instruments were turn&bank and airspeed
You only the need a turn indicator to get wing level, airspeed is completely determined by stick/trim position (no power 
), so it far less easier than full/partial panel in aeroplanes (no S&L means more scanning of altimeter and moving maps). Also, in many gliders AFMs there is not much aversion to icing (tough, wooden ones are prohibited from flying in rain for obvious reasons) and many fly in icing, I only discovered about the dangers of FIKI when doing reading for IR in aeroplanes…
In GA aeroplanes, I guess none have the “air-break bailout option” apart from Cirrus expensive parachute deployment?
I once tried cloud flying in a two-seater glider together with a cloud rated pilot. At the time, I had a PPL/IR and a SPL without cloud rating. The relevant instruments were turn&bank and airspeed. It really was no more difficult than partial panel in a powered aircraft — actually less so.
CharlieRomeo wrote:
I must say, I am astonished by the fact that only TWO hours of dual is needed.
You will be surprised how many glider pilots have legacy cloud ratings and fly in clouds without any IF skills (worst case, they just trim at 1.3*VS0 with open air-breaks, let go the controls, and spiral dive in a controlled way with air-breaks open). Those who fly fancy gliders, have a full six pack with all the IF scan that goes with, the majority just do IF on partial panel with Altimeter (yes Altimeter) & electric Turn Slip Indicator only
If air-breaks goes out of service (which could happen in freezing waves), I think you will need more than TWO hours of training and some wisdom not to drain the TurnSlip indicator battery (on has to remember there is no alternator in sailplanes, seems obvious but not when filming GoPro videos)
I think the only solid use case for cloud flying in gliders is descending trough clouds when flying in waves, in theory you can’t fly that much above cloud-base in thermals let a side with 6 other inside…
Bathman wrote:
Now could someone tell me what’s involved for a sailplane pilot to get a cloud rating. And a little bit about what it allows them to do because I’m sure this would fill their requirements.
This in FCL.830 and was, by the way, (re)introduced as a kind of cousin of the E-IR and the CB-IR.
Reintroduced, because in Germany there used to be a thing called “Wolkenflugberechtigung” which supposedly was exact the same thing, but in national regulations.
I only heard about it from older glider Pilots at my field.
Seemingly it was discontinued a long time ago, so today some still think legal cloud flying is impossible.
But in fact, even our club has one or two gliders which have “cloud flying” written in their type certificates, so you could use them. At least if someone puts the AIs back in there ;).
Here is what the FCL says:
FCL.830 Sailplane Cloud Flying Rating
(a) Holders of a pilot licence with privileges to fly sailplanes shall only operate a sailplane or a powered
sailplane, excluding TMG, within cloud when they hold a sailplane cloud flying rating.
(b) Applicants for a sailplane cloud flying rating shall have completed at least:
(1) 30 hours as PIC in sailplanes or powered sailplanes after the issue of the licence;
(2) a training course at an ATO including:
(i) theoretical knowledge instruction; and
(ii) at least 2 hours of dual flight instruction in sailplanes or powered sailplanes,
controlling the sailplane solely by reference to instruments, of which a maximum of
one hour may be completed on TMGs; and
(3) a skill test with an FE qualified for this purpose.
(c) Holders of an EIR or an IR shall be credited against the requirement of (b)(2)(i). By way of
derogation from point (b)(2)(ii), at least one hour of dual flight instruction in a sailplane or powered
sailplane, excluding TMG, controlling the sailplane solely by reference to instruments shall be
completed.
(d) Holders of a cloud flying rating shall only exercise their privileges when they have completed in the
last 24 months at least 1 hour of flight time, or 5 flights as PIC exercising the privileges of the cloud
flying rating, in sailplanes or powered sailplanes, excluding TMGs.
(e) Holders of a cloud flying rating who do not comply with the requirements in point (d) shall, before
they resume the exercise of their privileges:
(1) undertake a proficiency check with an FE qualified for this purpose; or
(2) perform the additional flight time or flights required in point (d) with a qualified instructor.
(f) Holders of a valid EIR or an IR shall be credited in full against the requirements in point (d).
I must say, I am astonished by the fact that only TWO hours of dual is needed.
The AMC to this states the syllabus:
2. FLYING TRAINING
2.1. The exercises of the sailplane cloud flight instruction syllabus should be repeated as
necessary until the student achieves a safe and competent standard and should comprise
at least the following practical training items, flown solely by reference to instruments:
— straight flight
— turning
— achieving and maintaining heading
— return to straight flight from steeper angle of bank
— position fixing using GPS and aeronautical charts
— position estimating using DR
— basic cloud escape manoeuvre/unusual attitude
— advanced cloud escape manoeuvre on nominated heading
As I understand it, it’s basically an IR(R) for gliders. You probably don’t want to soar over Amsterdam or London due to lack of thermals anyway ;)
EDIT: Forgot the Part about the glider medicals.
Glider licenses also come in more than one flavor- they have their LAPL(S) and the SPL. The former is on the LAPL-medical, the latter on a standard Class 2.
You cannot obtain an instructor rating on a LAPL(S) (like on a LAPL(A)) or fly for renumeration, which you can on an SPL. There is no such thing as a “C-SPL”, you only have to meet extra age and experience requirements and pass a proficiency check.
" 21 year old fresh IT univ graduate who has just spent 15 years in full time education, sat 100s of tests and exams, and is happy to take 7 more in his stride,"
I got my PPL at 23, 2 years after last exams in full-time education, 4 weeks after last exam.
I didn’t buy any books, just got free ground instruction when waiting to fly on the residential, full-time, 30 hour course. But that was 1964. Fewer than 7 exams. Only Air Law required an effort. Nav and met were already known.
boscomantico wrote:
They don’t do that for good reasons. One is that >95% of all aicraft calling in don’t have a flightplan filed, so FIS having the flightplans at their hands wouldn’t change much in terms of frequency congestion, in the big picture.
So what’s the chicken and the egg here?
What are the other good reasons?
They don’t do that for good reasons. One is that >95% of all aicraft calling in don’t have a flightplan filed, so FIS having the flightplans at their hands wouldn’t change much in terms of frequency congestion, in the big picture.
