Fly310 wrote:
Well, I guess it depends on if you are sending the student an invoice or if you are employed by the flight school but that is not a high enough salary to have a sustainable “fleet” of instructors.
Most instructors send an invoice to the flying school… Only the absolute minimum of instructors are actually employed (the authority insists on a number of those depending on the size of the school). Otherwise this whole business would not work, flying instruction – at least at PPL level – is mostly seasonal stuff and the number of students can fluctuate by a factor of 2 … 3 between years. A flying school with a majority of employed instructors can only survive if they work on contract for some airline.
Fly310 wrote:
We need to stop complaining and start flying.
I don’t complain and fly quite a lot and there is no shortage of students either. I don’t know where the problem is.
what_next wrote:
Most instructors send an invoice to the flying school…
If you do not(or can not) charge more than 30 euros per flight hour, you(all of you) should really step up to the employer. The “collective agreement” set by the union and the larger flight schools in Sweden mandate that the wage should be about 40 euros/hour if you are EMPLOYED. Perhaps we have higher taxes and costs of living here but I don’t think it is that much.
DTO: Declared Training Organisation
New name for the flight school that will probably be most suitable for the average flight club in Europe that teach LAPL, PPL, Night, Aerobatic and so on.
The proposal seems very promising.
Fly310 wrote:
set by the union and the larger flight schools
There is no union for flying instructors in Germany. The only union for pilots is “Vereinigung Cockpit” and this is mostly a Lufthansa-only thing who don’t care the least about “lesser” pilots than themselves and who do not even know that something like general aviation exists at all. Anyway, whatever minimum hourly salary is agreed upon there will always be enough “hour builders” who will do it for less (or for no pay at all). Ryanair has paved the way for that. For employees of any kind the legal minimumh hourly rate is 8,50 Euros in Germany and this would apply for employed instructors as well.
Instructors at club level usually don’t get paid at all. They instruct in order to get free flying hours. Therefore I see it as a big exception that MedEvok’s instructor gets 30 Euros per hour.
If I would teach someone PPL as a freelance instructor I would calculate that his 40 hours training will be split into 20 sessions of 2 hours each. With all ground stuff included this makes 20 full working afternoons or a month’s worth of half-time employment. Based on a monthly income for a trained professional of 5000 Euros before taxes and everything I would not do that for less than 2500 Euros. Anything less than that I will rather stay home and enjoy a free afternoon. I don’t think that this kind of figure is what those who promote freelance instruction have in mind…
what_next wrote:
I don’t complain and fly quite a lot and there is no shortage of students either. I don’t know where the problem is.
At the schools I work for there are more students and trial lesson than we could shake a stick at its instructors we can’t find, everyone is wondering why. I thought it would be obvious. I earn £25 per flying hour, a 1 hour lessons takes 2 hrs of my time. on average, I fly about 500 hours per year so that’s £12,500 per year, I must pay for medical and renewal fees. Unfortunately, I am considering moving on to the airlines, I don’t want to, let’s face it if you’re doing 5 or 6 sectors a day with an airline, the last thing you want to do on your day off is a trial lesson.
so, no amount of deregulation will save the ppl ab initio training industry. Its the same mentality as people moaning about landing fees in excess of £10
351Windsor wrote:
… so that’s £12,500 per year, I must pay for medical and renewal fees
That’s exactly it. And those people who advocate “freelance instruction” outside FTOs expect that figure to go down even more, otherwise what sense would it make? Instructing at PPL level is something a professional pilot/instructor should run away from as fast as one can. As shitty as it is, it would still be better to pay to fly a Boeing 737 for Ryanair than to instruct for that kind of a salary. We all should just stop doing it (I already did – no way am I instruct at PPL level for this kind of money) and let the clients figure out why no one wants to teach them…
MedEwok wrote:
What is DTO if you don’t mind asking?
Declared Training Organisation. A simpler alternative to the ATO intended for clubs, individal FIs, etc. only training for the LAPL/PPL and associated ratings. The main point is that you do not need an approval, instead you declare to your NAA that you are going to do flight training. Apart from that, the paperwork generally is much simpler.
With the pilot shortage in the US, it’s now pretty hard to find career CFI’s. They either go to corporate before 1500 or at exactly 1500 they’re off to regionals. This has resulted in the fact that pricing has increased. In LA basin a bog standard PPL CFI makes $70/hr. A CFII or ME instructor will make $100/hr. That’s more than a living wage, to be honest. And if you’re busy, even be a good living.
I think a key issue with flight instruction is to realize that training non-professional pilots is never going to be a very viable way to make a living, or the sole basis for a business. I think at PPL level it’s better viewed as a part time activity for people who pick up an instructor rating, have a real job, but who can make some money on the side. It can be a satisfying life long career, and a way to make some spare cash, but it’s unlikely to be a very good primary job. From the students point of view this is fine, he either rents the plane or buys one and off they go. It works fine that way, and is widespread for those who choose it in the US. The training regulations should be flexible and focused on pilots and promotion of their activity, not business or jobs or tax collection.
I bought my first plane before I knew who would teach me to fly it.
what_next wrote:
And those people who advocate “freelance instruction” outside FTOs expect that figure to go down even more, otherwise what sense would it make?
The thread starter certainly didn’t start it to advocate for lower pay for himself. If you don’t have to pay three managers and expensive office space (or just the wooden hut that Peter mentioned), but rather focus on the instruction itself, you cut out a lot of unnecessary overhead. I think it is easy to see that this model is more beneficial for motivated individuals who love what they do, thus doing a good job and building up a good reputation along the way.
It works more or less like that in the US flying club of which I am a member. The instructors need to be approved by the club and for specific airplanes, but they are then free to find their clientele and charge them on their own account for the flight instruction they give. So as an instructor, you could focus on being a “high volume, low price” entry level instructor (averaging about 50 $ an hour), or a “service oriented” high-performance, complex or exotic airplane type instructor (charging higher rates for your specialized work), or even go into aerobatics or such if that’s your thing. I think it has more appeal than being just an employee who gets told who he has to fly with every day, and who subsidizes three management positions that are required by some overblown regulation with every hour he works.
What I did find a bit odd in the US is that I also paid the same instruction hourly rate during the lunch stop where I generously invited my instructor, as it is customary to do in Europe. Should have finished my lunch quicker to save money. 
Rwy20 wrote:
So as an instructor, you could focus on being a “high volume, low price” entry level instructor (averaging about 50 $ an hour), or a “service oriented” high-performance, complex or exotic airplane type instructor (charging higher rates for your specialized work), or even go into aerobatics or such if that’s your thing. I think it has more appeal than being just an employee who gets told who he has to fly with every day, and who subsidizes three management positions that are required by some overblown regulation with every hour he works.
Very well put. A guy I know has set himself up as one stop shopping for Beechcraft owners in loose association with the dealer. He trains them to fly the specific plane and is also an A&P IA so if they’re local he works on the planes too. In combination he’s not getting rich but he makes a living. The planes are Bonanzas through Malibus etc.
Not too long ago he trained up the youngest pilot to fly solo around the world, in a Bonanza leased from the dealer. I hired him to give me some instruction on negotiating very complex Class B airspace, making some intimidating VFR transits, and he was really helpful. I forget his rate, not cheap, maybe $75/hr. He works out of a rented hangar and nearby home office.
