When ATC asks you to “orbit” at a holding point

Two points of terminology – which this thread is about anyway, so for this once I need not feel guilty…

• ATC do not ask or request – they are in control so they tell one what to do

• in my rosy days of youth, ATC at my then “homefield” EBAW would now and again tell pilots to perform a 360, usually adding the direction – is that no longer current phraseology? I even remember them ordering “360 to the left” to pilots on right-hand downwind, sometimes explaining " … for separation". If the same issue was given to a lesser degree, pilots were instructed to extend downwind.

Dimme wrote:

During my PPL training I was taught that VFR holdings are anti-clockwise and IFR holdings are clockwise.

A standard IFR hold is clockwise (right turns). That doesn’t mean that IFR holds can’t be anti-clockwise (left turns) — they are if it gives an operational advantage.

VFR holds as published by the Swedish CAA are always anti-clockwise. Again, there is no rule or standard that says it must be so.

Jan_Olieslagers wrote:

ATC do not ask or request – they are in control so they tell one what to do

That’s not quite true. ATC gives you clearances but if you feel that following the clearance would pose a safety risk or pose a significant operational disadvantage you can refuse it and ask for a different clearance.

@Dimme – You found nice 3 examples of right holdings but one can easily find as many left ones just few examples I’ve flown (you can see both types at some charts).

Jan_Olieslagers wrote:

ATC do not ask or request – they are in control so they tell one what to do

If this is about terminology, allow me to be pedantic, too:

It’s always the Pilot in Command who is in control. Always.

Airborne_Again wrote:

A standard IFR hold is clockwise (right turns). That doesn’t mean that IFR holds can’t be anti-clockwise (left turns) — they are if it gives an operational advantage.

VFR holds as published by the Swedish CAA are always anti-clockwise. Again, there is no rule or standard that says it must be so.

Emir wrote:

@Dimme – You found nice 3 examples of right holdings but one can easily find as many left ones just few examples I’ve flown (you can see both types at some charts).

Thanks, guys. I didn’t know. I learn something new every day. I was biased against the Swedish way, and I also probably confused that the “standard IFR hold” is the only one.

WhiskeyPapa wrote:

Would it be wrong in such a case to fly the hold (for practice)?

Unless they’ve given you a distance limit, or a radial limit of a cross-track station, why would this be wrong? The “orbit” will vary greatly in size proportional to the TAS or your aircraft.

Patrick wrote:

It’s always the Pilot in Command who is in control

Of course you are right, Patrick. A pilot-in-command is indeed in command and always has the last word. Still, what I meant to say was: ATC are in a position to not ask “alfa bravo niner eight seven could you please orbit at …” , their normal way is to state “zulu x-ray three two one, orbit at” and rightly too, they are controllers after all. Still, yes, the pilot-in-command has every right to declare “unable” – it has never happened to me, and I can’t remember ever hearing it live. I suppose if it ever occurs, parties will have to discuss a modus vivendi. Given the high level of training and professionalism in all concerned, that should be doable – at least I never heard of the contrary.

PS Airborne_Again hinted the same way, before you, I now recall.

Emir wrote:

You found nice 3 examples of right holdings but one can easily find as many left ones just few examples I’ve flown (you can see both types at some charts).

I flew the DINIG left hand hold today and on the same plate the SPR is right.