It is ideal for many people, if they can get over the lack of resale options. You can have an airplane which is quite capable like a PA-22-150 or DR1050 and fly for 300 euro a year fixed cost for inspections (150 for permit, 150 for inspection). What it costs you to stay on top of the condition of the airplane depends on the individual aircraft. If you need to overhaul an engine you can have it overseen by an inspector, or same with cylinders.
You can tour Europe VFR, albeit not stay long term. If you had time on your hands, had only one plane and were going to keep it you could get some really great long term use out of it for small running costs. They can work really well in groups with small outlay and no hourly charge to fly them, just put fuel in. I guess if you say, right I’m going to halve the value of this airplane from 25k to 12k, but fly it for 15 years on this system then its still cheap.
Interesting variation on the theme, but define ‘Vintage’ and ‘Classic’. I see the ILAS website has a list of ‘approved’ aircraft but to my mind that tells me that the ‘approved’ aircraft may be both Vintage & Classic but other aircraft which might be similarly described are not on the list. So how is that defined?
Historic, Vintage and Classic aircraft are:
These Aircraft are not governed by EASA regulations but rather by national legislation. The IAA may issue a Certificate of Airworthiness or a Flight Permit to such an aircraft to allow it to fly within this state.
See here – https://www.iaa.ie/general-aviation/aircraft-categories/vintage-and-classic-aircraft
I wondered whether this thread should go into Non Certified, but some of the types listed do have an ICAO CofA.
I wondered whether this thread should go into Non Certified, but some of the types listed do have an ICAO CofA.
I see your point. My J3 was on a standard C of A, as was my PA22 before I put them onto this system. I am trying to build a picture of how these arrangements work in other European countries. The IAA docs reference a system in France, and the UK which is well known. I thought I might find info on other systems in these countries and perhaps posters here using them.
WilliamF wrote:
Historic, Vintage and Classic aircraft are:
Non complex aircraft whose: initial design was established before 1st Jan 1955 and production has been stopped before 1st Jan 1975;
So it’s a standard frozen in time. It would be more logical if it were, say, any design more than 50, or perhaps 60 years since inception. More logical perhaps but less convenient for then ‘officials’ would have to continuously review matters and we can’t have that.
It would be more logical if it were, say, any design more than 50, or perhaps 60 years since inception. More logical perhaps but less convenient for then ‘officials’ would have to continuously review matters and we can’t have that.
Fair point. I agree. I was looking at the list to see if there were any nice aircraft that fitted the criteria but we’re already on the list. I don’t know what the word complex means in this context, does it exclude anything with a VP prop? It would obviously exclude any retractable.
WilliamF wrote:
The IAA docs reference a system in France, and the UK which is well known.
I have no idea about the UK/French system 
In Norway, for private aircraft, we have 3 maintenance classes. Class I is for large aircraft, class II is for small aircraft, and class III is for all Annex II aircraft with a C of A. All experimentals and oldies go in class III. There is a large factor of owner maintainance, but it will depend on the actual aircraft, it’s complexity and the competence (and wishes) of the owner. There is no need for certified maintenance organisations. This way the oldies will stay certified. It’s almost exactly like the US system, but more relaxed about who can maintain them.
These oldies, and experimentals for that matter, can be used in clubs, but then the maintenance gets a bit stricter. Experimentals cannot be used for basic training, only for special things like tail wheel, skis, CS prop etc. Oldies are used exactly like EASA aircraft, the only difference is different maintenance classes. Experimentals also gets a C of A here, and are used just like an EASA aircraft, but no commercial use and no basic training.
Putting things on experimental register for no apparent reason sounds a bit odd to me. All in all, most people are better off with a certified aircraft given everything else practically equal. The reason is that any certified mechanic knows how to maintain them, because everything is “standard aircraft”. With experimentals, all kinds of strange new things can be installed, things that require special competence and attention.
I have someone in Germany who wants one of the “permit to fly” aircraft I have (One is LAA, one is ILAS). Is there any system in Germany to operate on a permit to fly on the German register? Do they have a system of permits to fly like Ireland or the UK for factory-manufactured aircraft, designed before 1 January 1955 and their production ended before 1 January 1975?
Or is a Luscombe 8A in Germany treated the same as a Cessna 172? Just another certified aircraft…
Thanks for any help that’s out there.
William
No, there is no permit system for certified aircraft in Germany. Obviously, there are Annex-I certified aircraft (like a Luscombe) and EASA-regulated certified aircraft (C172), but in terms of maintenance and continued airworthiness, they are the same (Part-ML).
