For this to work, somebody would need to “sell” to each airport an incentive to enter any new price into a website.
This is simply because there isn’t enough GA activity whose members would do this job diligently enough, and this is what we see. A German site gets some input from mainly German pilots.
The Q is then: what is the incentive for the airport to do it? IMHO -
One could create an incentive for the airport to enter the data, by paying them. That would mean the database would need revenue, by
The final problem is that IME most pilots don’t look at the fuel price when choosing where to fly.
I can see somebody doing it as a leisure project but just the cost and hassle of getting airports “in” would be substantial.
The objective is a great idea; sorry to sound negative.
FWIW, a Polish web site with “news for pilots” (dlapilota.pl) tallies up prices at various airports and presents a report, more or less monthly. An updated version just came out. They started noting self-service (samoobsługa) and credit card acceptance (płatność kartą), as well as operating hours.
Peter wrote:
One could create an incentive for the airport to enter the data, by paying them.
Paying them?? I wouldnt give them an English penny.
How about competition? The reason Europe is in such _____ is because they sit on their ____ and wait for someone to give them something. Like its their right.
Closing an airport because the one airline flight uses it only 2 hrs a day is a prime example. What about self service? You dont even need the ____ there for that.
You dont know what you are missing until youve experienced it and listening to all the reasons why it cant be done is a good reason it wont be done.
The whole system here ______. The reason there is no competition is because the govt owns the airports and pays the workers so screw competition, “it will just cause us to work.” The thinking continues if we get paid whether we sit and do nothing or bust hump so why bust hump?
Back in the day, I did several Transcontinental runs in the US from Coast to coast. It was great having fuel prices that I could rely on. The differences in prices will make you Europeans laugh but it was a savings for us middle class flyers.
Just my 2 cts.
IMO a site indicating fuel availability would be more useful than prices, or certainly a higher priority.
For some countries, this is no pb because the information and availability are reliable. For others, less so.
The diapilota.pl site mentioned above is helping me with planning for a flight through Poland this summer, but is not without challenges: 1) it is only in Polish, needing google translation, 2) the table is published every month but sometimes without comments. For example, Ketrzyn EPKE had Avgas in 2015, but the X in the Avgas column is absent this month without any notes to indicate the reason or if it coming back, etc. It took a bit of scrolling to find out if it stopped providing Avgas recently or some time ago.
C210_Flyer, I think your generalization is unfair to all the airfields that are very active and trying to advertise themselves and provide the best service possible. There are many many airfields in Europe that don’t fit the model you describe. Sure, the ones you describe exist. But we as pilots have our part to fly more and patronize the airfields that work to deserve our business. The problem as mentioned by Peter is that there are so many pilots who spend all their time complaining rather than going out and flying to all the places that are truly hospitable and worthwhile….. and spread the good word.
There is no perfect airfield. Just look at the discussions for a EuroGA flight. There is a wide variety of aircraft and pilots/qualifications with corresponding various needs…. paved/grass, VFR/IFR, customs, operating hours, avgas/jetA1, etc. So one pilot’s complaints about an airfield doesn’t have this or that could be about a perfect airfield for someone else.
Bottom line, let’s talk up the airfields where we have good experiences and say why. I find the eddh.de web site very good in this regard. Even if the info is sometimes dated, it is clearly indicated and everyone can update it with new info. It is a shame that there doesn’t seem to be anything similar in English for non-German speakers.
We can dream about the US situation, but any comparison is not very useful due to the basic difference with Europe: multi-national, multi-language, multi-administration, aso.
Its just frustrating to have to deal with such a mindset which forces what could be a practical transportation tool into an expensive hobby.
Look at what AOPA is doing in the US. They are battling user fees tooth and nail. Why because they see what is happening where user fees are instituted. Now compare that to what is happening here in Europe.
I fly into EDMS and because they purchased a computer program that is linked to Eurocontrol they charge me an IFR arrival (approach) fee just because part of the flight was an IFR flight. Never mind that I cancel the IFR flight while still in another country and continued and landed VFR. They still insisted that I am an IFR arrival. The same goes for Departure even though I depart on a Z Plan. So this new Fee structure currently adds an increase of 50% to the fee for the use of that airport. By the way, they can charge what they want. For that matter they could increase it to 100% or more. This is only the Tip of the iceberg. Does anyone think that if other airports get a whiff of what EDMS is doing, and doing so without a push back, then they will not then do the same??
So during the AERO I looked up German AOPA and IAOPA as well as PPL/IR and told them about this new threat to GA. Do you think anyone gave a ____? Nooo.
I explain to them that if one person complains NOTHING will happen but if an organization with many pushed back then something might happen. All fell on deaf ears.
There is your classic example of why you can only dream of a US style GA and make excuses for the style of GA you have here in Europe. After what I experienced at the AERO I will never contribute to any of the European Aviation associations. By the way I spent $120 and joined PPL/IR so that as a member they might attempt to do something about it. We will see.
Tomorrow I will fly the airplane for the obligatory every 2 week flight to keep the plane running and do some approaches at a nearby real airport. Figure on a 320 Euro jaunt for 1 hr of flying. Yes it will be fun but certainly not the main reason I own the plane.
@C210_Flyer
Something is wrong. The price list of EDMS explicitely states that the € 4.20 charges are for “I” (IFR) and “Y” (IFR Depature) flight planes. “Z” Departures are not mentioned.
I personally think that this is such a small fee that it doesn’t bother me, but I remember that you didn’t agree. I don’t think it’s a good example to prove how bad GA in Europe really is.
I also try to update SkyDemon (which includes date of the post) but don’t always get to it. I consider it good manners.
Alexis What I told you is what they told me after charging me 5Euros for landing and 5 Euros for taking off Z,Y or whatever. So it adds 50% to the cost of a flight into an airport that should be kissing my feet because the real money is, what I leave behind in the maintenance facility every year. The same facility that provides income to the town and taxes via those same individuals. About 10-15000 Euros. For the privilege of leaving that kind of money every time if there needs to be a test flight I get charged for a landing. Yes its a VFR arrival and departure so its only about 20 Euros. I think I mentioned my German girlfriend dutifully paid the bills for six months till I found out what was going on.
Regarding technical flights, if you tell them ahead of time that you will do 5 TO and Landings you will then get a discount. That is only true if they are told ahead of time AND you actually do 5 TO & Ldings.
Alexis its not about you and what you can and can not afford, its the Principle, principle, and again I say principle. The reason we dont have these nonsense mandatory handling charges in the US is because people vote with their feet. Here it just accepted thinking that If you can afford an airplane you shouldnt complain about your charges. That kind of mentality will assure 0 GA in the near future.
By the way why stop at 5Euros? Maybe they can increase it to 10 Euros TO and 10 Landing. How about 20? What will make you say, “ouch I dont want to pay that fee”? Who determines what the fee will be?
Are you starting to understand this is only the tip of the Iceberg?
PS Glad to have you back.
Sorry, but we will never have the same opinion ln this, C210.
The EDMS provides a great service and the fees are so small that i gladly pay them. € 4,20 for an IFR approach or Y departure, that’s the fuel your airplane consumes – on the base leg.
Of course i might complain aswell if the fee was € 20 or more – but it’s not – and so it’s fine with me.
I understand that it’s about your principles. But i don’t share this principle.
You cannot compare a US airport that’s funded by the FAA (tax money, i guess) with the situation here. And i see no point in comparing two countries so different anyway. Is GA nicer in the US? I think so! Is it nice to have no speed limits and free universities? You bet …
PS: Why do i have to pay tolls for bridges and tunnels in NYC? I am spending a lot of money in Manhattan!
