johnh wrote:
Avoid Barcelonnette LFMR like the plague. You may consider me biassed, since it’s well known that I lost my plane there. But plenty of others have too, most recently in horrible circumstances. And even more nearly have – I was talking recently to a VERY accomplished pilot, who told me that she had very nearly lost her plane there due to the humped/steeply descending runway (That was what got me too, but she had the good sense not to try to go around, and just barely managed to stop on the paved runway).What makes Barcelonnette so terrifying, compared to other aerodromes in mountainous terrain? I’m not aware of your personal story and have never been to LFMR yet, but I fly in the (Swiss) Alps regularly and just being curious. For me, it looks like a nice 800 m paved runway. The AIP reports downdrafts when the wind comes from 270° at 20kt, but that sounds not as a surprise. 3714 ft height means high-density altitude in summer times, but again, sounds all well manageable.
It’s the sloped runway that gets people. It has a big hump in the middle which means that you have very little braking effect once you get past the mid-point. Someone earlier mentioned a 10% slope – I didn’t think it was that steep but it is certainly pretty steep. My car will cheerfully go down a 5% slope at 100 km/h with the engine at idle – the physics are the same.
If I ever went there again (zero chance!) I would treat it as a 400m runway where at the midpoint it turns into a swamp full of alligators. I think (benefit of experience!) that this is the only way to operate safely on a humped runway.
Also the approach is very challenging. It’s 6000’ feet down in a valley which is too narrow to make a standard rate turn at 100 knots. The approved pattern is very tight with a very short final.
It’s a real airplane eater. Just search the BEA database. Not just on the field itself, but crashes in the approach phase too. And that’s just the ones that made the headlines. Add to that all the ones you don’t read about, where they JUST made it (like my super-experienced pilot friend).
Trust me, it’s well worth avoiding. There’s absolutely nothing to do when you get there either – walk 3km into a tiny town with no attractions, admire the surrounding mountains.
johnh wrote:
Someone earlier mentioned a 10% slope – I didn’t think it was that steep but it is certainly pretty steep. My car will cheerfully go down a 5% slope at 100 km/h with the engine at idle – the physics are the same.5-10% slope?! And why does neither the AIP nor Jeppesen report that on the aerodrome charts? Looking at the data, the elevation reported at threshold 09 is 3696ft and 3703ft at 27, with the highest aerodrome point at 3714ft, and parking area at 3707ft. That can never be that much slope gradient, however, it might be that the human eye fools the pilot due location.
Also the approach is very challenging. It’s 6000’ feet down in a valley which is too narrow to make a standard rate turn at 100 knots. The approved pattern is very tight with a very short final.Looking at the charts, the approach into the valley is wider compared to some mountainous airfields in the Swiss Alps, like LSPU, LSPM, or LSGK to name a few. Sure, I do believe LFMR needs caution, but that counts for all these kinds of aerodromes.
Trust me, it’s well worth avoiding. There’s absolutely nothing to do when you get there either – walk 3km into a tiny town with no attractions, admire the surrounding mountains.Well, it has a nice ski area very close by, which I want to try. Maybe I would like to fly there for a weekend in March or so.
The aerodrome has a section on its website, dedicated to these issues. As usual in France, it is only in French.
The slopes of the runway from the centre towards the thresholds is only about 2%.
The slopes of the runway from the centre towards the thresholds is only about 2%.
That’s more or less what I thought. But it still seriously gets your attention. Obviously I don’t want to name names, but let’s say it made me feel slightly less wretched about the whole thing to meet a seriously ace pilot who says “I came THIS close to losing my plane there”, holding her fingers a few cm apart.
Well, it has a nice ski area very close by
Unless you want to walk there, LFMR won’t help. Much better to go to Gap and rent a car.
By the way I have done high altitude airports before, including Leadville, and short runways – my former home field, KPAO, is 750m (though flat).
The problem is that the very east side of the runway has a progressively descending slope, and if you didn’t manage to stop in the last 50 meters, the ending slopes will don’t help much and you are going to jump on the trench, cross the route and finish not far from the trees (if you are lucky).
boscomantico wrote:
The aerodrome has a section on its website, dedicated to these issues. As usual in France, it is only in French.
Didn’t know about this one, but the figures looks different from what the site manager told me – there is a 10 meters altitude difference between the middle section and the beginning of runway.
boscomantico wrote:
The aerodrome has a section on its website, dedicated to these issues. As usual in France, it is only in French.Thanks. Sounds all reasonable and not so much different, compared to other airfields in mountainous terrain. Now I see this link also mentioned by the AD manager in Skydemon.
The problem is that the very east side of the runway has a progressively descending slope, and if you didn’t manage to stop in the last 50 meters, the ending slopes will don’t help much and you are going to jump on the trench, cross the route and finish not far from the trees (if you are lucky).That’s a helpful note, maybe they should put a vertical runway view in the AIP, like for altiports.
Unless you want to walk there, LFMR won’t help. Much better to go to Gap and rent a car.Taxi or hotel transfers might help. I did already some research before, as the plan “fly to ski” to LFMR is not new, but unfortunately didn’t work out this year.
