LeSving wrote:
When you have passed 30 you simply cannot be trained to accept the level of discipline required for an air force pilot.
This is similar to arguments I’ve heard from industry people for not employing Ph.Ds even in positions where their competence would be a real asset. They don’t want someone who has spent 4 years (give or take) training to think independently.
what_next wrote:
Unless of course he wants to do a year at Harward in between
Harward actually isn’t that expensive, you can do a diploma in marketing for 4.400 AUD (around 3400 US-$). Harvard might be more expensive, though. 
Military recruitment will be very different from the airlines. There are loads of reasons why they can’t take “oldies” e.g. the 5-10M spent training a fast jet pilot.
Coming back to the “DIY CPL/IR” route, sure we can toss the numbers around a bit but no matter how you do it it will still be nowhere near 80-100k. Also you could do a PPL/IR in Arizona for relative peanuts, build 50hrs IFR time out there, and do the ICAO IR to CB IR conversion (and PPL conversion via the 100hr route, though the PPL may as well be done in Europe) over here. Another option is to get the IMCR and hour build IFR time by flying and logging PIC time in a friend’s (or parent’s) plane, which can be arranged with the insurance with the owner being in the RHS, etc.
Universities are pricey in the UK now, with the grants having been replaced by loans (itself the result of a mad drive to drive down standards which resulted in a huge increase in the % of the population entering university which in turn killed the grants system). Somebody with a degree will be some 30-50k in debt by the time they come out, which should hopefully reduce the number of people doing a degree in multimedia 
Needless to say most university degrees are meaningless for getting a job relevant to what you studied, but that’s always been the case here.
Peter wrote:
Military recruitment will be very different from the airlines. There are loads of reasons why they can’t take “oldies”…
One of the reasons why they don’t take “oldies” I am told, is that once people get past 25 or so, have wife and children and generally something to lose, their eagerness to throw themselves against fierce anti-aircraft fire into someone else’s war reduces considerably. I remember when they deployed some squadrons of German and Italian Tornados to one of the Irak conflicts, more than half of the aircraft either didn’t get airborne in the first place or turned back halfway due to “technical problems”. I guess there is an obvoius correlation between pilot’s age and those technical issues…
On the thread of military recruitment, by chance two evenings ago, I bumped into a senior Navy person, who headed up recruitment. He told us that they did not want individuals after Univetsity. Direct entry at 17.5 was always the preferred route. His issue was that the Forces could not recruit enough of these a few years ago. Apparently, everyone wants to go to university first.
BeechBaby wrote:
Apparently, everyone wants to go to university first
Which is a smart thing to do because one can be thrown out of the military flight training at any stage. For every 100 carefully selected recruits only 20 or so make it to the final stage. In the worst case when they kick you out during transition to the fast fighters you will have lost almost 4 years and have absolutely nothing. You will be credited something like a PPL towards civilian flight training, but this is it. The guys who started their civilian career when you joined the airforce will be close to their first regional airliner command or hold their bachelor’s degree at university.
what_next wrote:
Which is a smart thing to do because one can be thrown out of the military flight training at any stage.
Yes and no. Life is about decisions, and consequence. I did not go to university straight from school, but jumped into the big bad world. I, in later life, gained a Masters from Glasgow University. From the military perspective it is all about the training and discipline, mentioned earlier in this thread. The barrier, as always, is funding to the civilian route. If you go military, then it is free……however, I agree with the fall out rate, and it can be cruel. Sets you up for later life though.
One can always flunk uni also…
You get nearly zero credit for military flight training nowadays. In 2011 I was at an FTO at EGHH and there was a bunch of Chinook pilots who had the equivalent of a multi pilot ATPL (a Chinook is multi pilot) but they had to do it all again. All 14 JAA ATPL exams, 55hrs for the ME IR, etc. They were pretty sick about that. Especially having to learn all the garbage which is all the harder when you know it is garbage. I knew it was garbage but they knew it even more. The average young ATPL student doesn’t know it is garbage.
Very few people flunk university in the sense of dropping out but very few get a job in their chosen discipline, especially if they did a “humanities” (non science / engineering) degree, so that probably amounts to the same thing. But going to a uni is better than spending 18-21 stuffing shelves at Tesco. Well, until you have to repay the student loan…
Yes, I was at Full Sutton the day a number of Tucano guys learned that it was over – austerity cuts -. They, as you can imagine, were truly gutted. I actually think for kids, this is one of the hardest decisions you can make. University or not. Easy if you want to be a Doctor/Lawyer/Vet. Harder if you want a ’’degree’’.Millions of MA’s churned out each year, in debt, and looking forward to:
Peter wrote:
18-21 stuffing shelves at Tesco. Well, until you have to repay the student loan…
These numbers for an Airline Transport License in the UK/Europe are all crazy. I have a Canadian CPL/IR and it didn’t cost anywhere near these suggestions (completed between 2011 and 2015)
PPL: $11k CAD
Seaplane: $2k CAD
Night rating: $1k CAD (did it my own plane)
CPL: $5k CAD (did it in my own plane; self study)
IR: $2.5k in the sim plus $3k CAD in a hired aircraft
All that would be left is a ME course ($3k CAD) and to do another IR flight test in an ME ($1k). There are two exams for the ATPL at $100 each. Then hour building to get to 1500 hours.
By these numbers I make it about $28.7k; The current exchange for GBP to CAD is 1.65; therefore I could have a ‘frozen’ ATPL for £17.4k GBP.
The impression I get is that in Canada it costs much less, but the airline entry pay is lower and you will be flying thousands of hours before getting to a jet. It will be 1000 to 2000 hours instructing, another 1500 hours flying something small (e.g. a Seneca), then another 2000 hours in a turbo prop. Maybe, if you are lucky, you might be looking at right hand seat in a low-cost carrier at 5000 hours.
This compares to starting in the RHS of a low cost european carrier at 400 hours. In the UK/Europe, I get the impression that the ramp up in the payscale might be faster, but as I don’t really know…. ymmv.
Maybe I am biased, but I would always recommend getting a useful degree, e.g. engineering or other, so that all of your eggs aren’t in one basket. It would really be terrible to have a medical issue and not be able to earn money flying after you have progressed down that career path. If you have a technical degree you can always do something related to aviation…
