More quirks of French IFR - NIMBY waypoints

I’m with JohnH here, this is ridiculous (with a big F in front).

In Germany, Bonn-Hangelar had a similar nimby-police and an edict by the state authority that the circuit had to be kept within 150 metres either side.

An expert ripped that to pieces, establishing (other that there is no legal basis in Germany to require that level of precision) that, amongst other things
- it is quite difficult to determine exactly what one overflies by visual reference alone, for example in a Mooney you see the ground 3 km or further ahead or to the front right, and 500 or more metres to the left
- the available maps and charts were not accurate/current enough
- the precision required to keep within the corridors was beyond the level required of a competent pilot, for example initiating a turn 3 seconds late would lead to a departure from the “corridor”

All this does not mean that it cannot be done. But it is a lot harder than one might think. And frankly, every instructor who has seen students and more experienced pilots in the circuit knows that quite a large proportion struggles even at their home field. Also, for fun just try exercises like turns around a point (part of the FAA syllabus) with a European pilot and watch many of them fail miserably. With wind, following a curved path requires continuous adjustment of a bank angle.

With that in mind, the pilot needs all the help they can get. And with visual navigation skills going downhill with more and more GPS use, the authorities should do all they can which here means to BLOODY WELL PUBLISH SENSIBLE WAYPOINT COORDINATES!

Expecting people to recognise traffic circles or tents or particularly tall trees is sooo 20th century…

First, I am glad I didn’t read this thread before going to LFMD the first time, would probably had scared me away!

I flew this VPT the first time probably 2y ago and many times since.

My experience is the first time was very confusing, In retrospect I had not studied the picture enough, and it all goes fast (even at 90/100kts…) « which one is the highway intersection to follow exactly ??? » but AtC noticed I seemed unsure and gave me guidance when to turn.

But now, it all feels straight forward and the reference point easy to follow visually.

So I guess both view are somewhat true: would have been helpful the first time to have gps points, but after a few times feels easy to do it visually :)

I’m surprised at some of the comments on here, from what I have presumed to be experienced pilots.
VPT VISUAL manouver with prescribed track.
Its an IFR procedure flown visually in VMC.
How hard is that to understand? Is France the only country to have VPTs? How about circling to land in general?
If its not on georeferenced VACs in your GPS are you saying you find it too complicated to fly a VFR circuit to an airfield you’ve never flown to before?
Is having things such.as Skydemon, FF, SDVFR leading to pilots doing less pre flight planning than they used to?
If that’s shaking baguettes, well guilty as charged.🙂

Is having things such.as Skydemon, FF, SDVFR leading to pilots doing less pre flight planning than they used to?

I think it mostly lead to people pushing their boundary of comfort going to new places on their own.

For ex, in my story, I think I would likely not have gone to a place like LFMD on my own for the first time pre-moving map/gps. I would have gone with someone who had experience first.

So it probably leads to the lesser pilots like myself to do more…

@gallois never underestimate the “impression of first sight” that can be misleading even the most experienced pilots.

Sometimes just a small confirmation bias can put you totally wrong. If you identified just one landmark wrong and stick to the interpretation you can follow the wrong path for a long walk.

This PIREP should not be turned down, but be forwarded to authorities to (at least try to) make them see what we see. This procedure has some error margin that could be maybe improved.

@UdoR I hear what you are saying, however I don’t agree.
We are now talking here about 1 waypoint/landmark. A huge road junction between 2 major roads. IIRC it is also a péage with the booths.
Secondly if I read correctly johnh wasn’t threatened by the DGAC with any kind of fine or penalty. There was in his own words a polite admonishment. Now I agree that no one likes to be told off even in a tongue in cheek manner but I suppose they felt that they had to say something so they can say to any Nimby that asks that they have told the pilot off.
The DSAC south AFAIK have not introduced any threats either and they wont if pilots just prepare better.
Toussus le Noble and its blue circles have shown what can happen when the DSAC are pressurised by the local populace. Nearly every week some pilot or another has to write a REX for passing even slightly over one of the circles.

We are also talking here of pilots with an IR as this is an instrument approach even though it is in VMC.

gallois wrote:

So what you are saying is that the more you bank the aircraft has no effect on the radius of the turn? If that is the case why does the majority of IFR turns based on rate1. Approximately 15% of TAS.

Now you’re being silly. Of course the bank affects the radius of the turn. But if you choose the bank angle to achieve a rate 1 turn, then the turn radius will be directly proportional to the speed. So if the 180° turn at LFMD is designed for rate 1 at 160 KTAS, then at 90 KTAS you’ll need to make a rate 0.56 turn to stay on track, which corresponds to a bank angle of about 8° as compared to about 14° for a rate 1 turn.

OK my apologies the junction is not a péage by the looks of it but 2 big roundabouts on either side of a major highway.
“B” is on final approach course so just szt the OBS. It is 2.3 nm from the DME CMD and 2.6 nm from the threshold as shown on your GPS.

I will admit to perhaps causing some confusion with the rate 1 turn. I was trying to liken it to the base turn on an NDB approach where you have a check point at about 15° degrees before the inbound course.
On the planes I fly regularly I tend to be familiar with the ‘shape’ of a rate 1 turn and make adjustments from there which will of course depend on the plane I am flying, approach speed and wind.
For instance on a normal VFR circuit in most club SEPs the circuit becomes a rectangle with a straight base whereas with most twins base is a constant curve. My wife gets frightened by tight turns so I try to keep them as gentle as possible.
What bank angle do most on here use to turn onto the base leg?