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Cost of airframe parts

Here is a great example of why one should look after one’s airframe – €638 plus VAT in total for these two bits

Mine were actually OK-ish after 12 years but nearly all maintenance companies never grease these linkages; instead they use spray lube which drips off in no time at all, and picks up lots of abrasive grit. So they end up either worn (and you pay for it) or seized up (and you pay for it, plus whatever else got trashed as a result).

I wonder how much it would be to manufacture say a batch of 100 of these linkages? The material is mild steel (i.e. the cheapest crap). Probably about 1/10 of the end user price, so allowing for say a 25% dealer discount (itself completely totally utterly pointless to have a dealer who keeps no stock and thus orders everything back-to-back, doesn’t help you with finding the correct P/N in case they got it wrong and thus adds absolutely zero, zilch, no value whatsoever to the brand) gives you a gross margin of approx 85% towards your fixed costs, which are those of whatever it takes to be an EASA/FAA 145 company with a laser printer capable of printing off the EASA-1 or 8130-3 form

Knowing how Socata sometimes work, these bits are probably made by a company making bits for homebuilts and they certify them under their 145 approval. But all manufacturers do this kind of markup; there is nothing excessive about these prices compared to say Piper or Cessna.

My post-Calvi (Corsica) Annual – just finished – took an extra day, due to all the crap (very abrasive sand) that had to be cleaned off. 4.5 days total to do everything.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

4.5 days total to do everything.

Is that 4.5 days for the entire 100H/Annual Inspection for just the A&P or plus your time ?

FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

4.5 days total elapsed time, with an A&P/IA plus two others working under his supervision.

It’s a very long way from the 1- and 2-month annuals which so many G-reg owners (or syndicate “managers”) report. I cannot see how an annual can take so long, unless

  • unexpected parts are needed and it takes ages to get them in
  • the company drops your job while a more aggressive customer is screaming at them to do his plane
  • they are massively disorganised
  • they are taking the p1ss
  • you owe them money
  • they cannot order the required parts because they haven’t been paying their bills, nobody gives them credit anymore, and their bank account is empty
  • you have slagged them off on a pilot forum
  • they also hangar your plane, so you are not able to put pressure on them
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

What you have there is an eye bolt:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/eyeboltsan45.php?clickkey=23318

Two of those and an internally threaded rod, and you can can have a shop making equivalent parts for less, unless doing it yourself. No welding needed (which can be relatively expensive for small parts/one offs).

What this shows is in fact the difference between US manufactured airplanes and European manufactured. I had a visit from my inspector the other day. He is head of maintenance for 20 ca helicopters of various brands. Bell helicopters are easy and cheap to maintain. Parts are cheap and if necessary they can make parts themselves (although some critical parts are insanely expensive and cannot be replaced with “home made”). Airbus helicopters are very different. They cannot do anything on an Airbus unless “approved” parts are used, and that includes every tiny little bit.

What you should do with that TB of yours, is to scrap it. Then “rebuild” it as an experimental registered in Norway/Sweden, and you can modify/fix all you want with standard AN parts from Aircraft Spruce – and – flying IFR

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

But all manufacturers do this kind of markup; there is nothing excessive about these prices compared to say Piper or Cessna.

I operate 4 Volvo Penta diesel engines commercially in boats, all not old at all but giving a lot of trouble. They are car engine derived and very popular these days. I never understood why because they are very complex and require a lot of expensive maintenance and break often — exactly the thing you don’t need when you operate them commercially in very remote places.

After I found out that the same boat model used to be equipped with a much more robust YANMAR engine, I started enquiring why Penta became so dominant. Very simple solution: Penta price their new engines to OEMs (i.e. shipyards) so low that the competition stands no chance and they deliver a huge choice of installation specific fittings so that engineering is very limited. On top of that they add an absolutely perfect spare part supply chain management (I get every part within one day, no matter how obscure). This way they get a lot of engines out and can milk boat owners around the globe like there is no tomorrow.

Just this week I ordered a few gaskets, bearings, o-rings to fix a leaking saildrive shaft. The bill was around 700 €. When I look at all the parts I got, I saw that they are all standard industry parts. Needle bearings from SKF that I get for 10 € in a shop around the corner at a Penta price of 40 €. A standard O-ring for 10€, etc. There was not a single special part included in the whole shipment.

In boating there are no certification requirements. I can install whatever I like and yet the business works. Why? Because there are millions of parts and I don’t know which ones I need and when I need them, I need them urgently and I don’t have the means to figure which standard part it is. I can’t disassemble the boat, identify the part, wait a few days until I get it to the place I need it and fix it again.

My impression is that in the boating world you get equally shafted and there isn’t even a certification regime protecting the manufacturers.

Last Edited by achimha at 10 Jan 12:43

What you should do with that TB of yours, is to scrap it. Then “rebuild” it as an experimental registered in Norway/Sweden, and you can modify/fix all you want with standard AN parts from Aircraft Spruce – and – flying IFR

LeSving – can you please continue that bit here I am honestly really interested.

Needle bearings from SKF that I get for 10 € in a shop around the corner at a Penta price of 40 €. A standard O-ring for 10€, etc. There was not a single special part included in the whole shipment.

It is possible that the motor parts business has a special problem: the dealers (the shops, and there are many of them around the place) keep a lot of parts in stock, and a lot of the parts are very slow moving e.g. 1 sale every 5 years. This has to be financed somehow. In aviation, the distis/dealers keep almost nothing in stock (beyond the engine air filter) and there are far fewer of them.

Airbus helicopters are very different. They cannot do anything on an Airbus unless “approved” parts are used, and that includes every tiny little bit.

One assumes that the ripoff Airbus/EADS/EASA system doesn’t have a sufficient overall operating cost effect on say an A320 otherwise everybody would be buying 737s. Or maybe Boeing run the same “scheme”? Remember this is not Part 91 – this is AOC ops. I don’t know the rules but it’s possible that one is forced to use original parts.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

If I remember correctly, there was at least one effort in Europe to design a certified aircraft with the maximum use of generic automotive parts – Gardan GY-80. Even the airframe was somewhat “genericised”: one and the same spare could be installed as a flap, an aileron, an elevator or a rudder. Strangely enough, it wound up being commercially produced by Socata.

LKBU (near Prague), Czech Republic

They are car engine derived.

No they are not. Penta started 100 years ago (at least) making marine engines. Volvo bought the company in the 30s, but they operates separately making marine engines that has nothing in common with Volvo car engines (which are Renault engines these days in any case).

Just this week I ordered a few gaskets, bearings, o-rings to fix a leaking saildrive shaft. The bill was around 700 €. When I look at all the parts I got, I saw that they are all standard industry parts. Needle bearings from SKF that I get for 10 € in a shop around the corner at a Penta price of 40 €. A standard O-ring for 10€, etc. There was not a single special part included in the whole shipment.

I have a Yanmar diesel. I have to admit, it simply runs and runs and runs with very few stops and trouble. But it is not error free, and parts are expensive. I changed the external salt water pump once. The Norwegian dealer wanted 7-800 € for it. This is a dead simple thing, cast bronze with two bearings, axle and a standard replaceable impeller. Only the bearings were destroyed. The bearings cost maybe 2-3 €, but they were custom made bronze/ball (on each side if I remember correctly), not standard, and Yanmar only sell the complete unit. I bought a brand new one on e-bay for 3-400 €, but if I knew the size/dimensions of the bearings, I would of course just replace them instead. It boils down to how much time and effort you are willing to put into it. A new complete pump is expensive, but it easy to replace, and easy to get, and it will last for years. To figure out the internal parts take time, and to find the parts take time, and to replace them takes time.

All in all I think Volvo Penta is better than Yanmar. A Volvo Penta is like a Lycoming, it can be fixed everywhere, and it can be fixed fast. When travelling in a boat this is important, because the worst thing that can happen on holiday is getting stranded for weeks waiting for parts. A Yanmar is probably more reliable, but not so much that it really matters. If you have some time and like to fiddle, a Penta is much cheaper to maintain because standard parts can be used.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

No they are not. Penta started 100 years ago (at least) making marine engines. Volvo bought the company in the 30s, but they operates separately making marine engines that has nothing in common with Volvo car engines (which are Renault engines these days in any case).

The Volvo Penta D3 of which I have 2 is a marine application of the Volvo 5-cylinder 2.4l common rail diesel (which Volvo just end-of-lifed a few weeks ago for their cars). Even though Penta is old, they still have to license existing engines when they design a new product and for whatever strange reason, they tend to take stuff from Volvo! Almost no small marine engine was developed from scratch. Even worse than Pentas are VW Marine engines. VW (being the rulers of the universe) thought they could take over the boat market but that dream seems not to have lasted long.

I changed the external salt water pump once.

My Pentas develop leaks in their sea water pumps every year and the impeller becomes brittle and ends up in the cooling circuit. At least there is an overhaul kit with new bearings and seals and impeller (ca 250 € although the parts are worth 10 €). There’s even an inspection plate on that pump to have a look at the impeller so that’s one of the smarter components in my Penta (not taken from the car). I’ve just overhauled two and we fixed one ourselves with cheap standard parts, just to see if it can be done. I bet it will last as long and it cost 10 €.

As you said, it’s about how much time you’re willing to invest. I managed to find the company that does all turbocharger overhauls for Volvo Penta and ordering with them directly reduced the cost by 50%! The oil coolers last maximum one year and cost 250 €, a complete POS design although from a top supplier. Sometimes it’s not the part cost but the downtime. I prefer to have an engine that only requires scheduled maintenance. Yanmar comes much closer to that and parts availability should be as good as with Penta. Your sea water pump should have been serviced after 3 years or so.

All in all I think Volvo Penta is better than Yanmar.

I’m talking about commercial boats and there I think the Pentas are not good. ECU-controlled common rail injection works reliably with the Swedish climate and Swedish fuel and Swedish mechanics but take African climate and African fuel and it’s trouble without end. A Penta is not like a Lycoming, it’s a super complicated machine with lots of electronics and sensitive components.

We have the same debate in aero engines — stone aged inefficient simple technology or modern, efficient technology that has issues with reliability and field serviceability. Or the more extreme: small turbines like PT6. They burn twice the fuel but they rarely ever require unscheduled maintenance. Hey, there used to be small boat turbines, maybe I should look into that? Unfortunately the price of diesel was increased a lot lately for us: we now almost pay €0.25 per liter

With a commercial boat, it’s like with an airline. If your Cessna 172 doesn’t start, you skip the $100 burger run. If the Citation doesn’t start, 3 business people are going to be angry. If the A320 doesn’t start, you have a lot of passengers that get stranded and your whole operation takes a huge hit. We have the same when a freaking Penta part for €10 or €500 breaks — the main cost is in the downtime. 60 people having travelled 3 hours to the boat and being told it’s not going out is very unpleasant.

Strangely enough, it wound up being commercially produced by Socata.

… and finally evolved into my ST-10, which has however lost this (supposed) parts interchangeability.

LOAN Wiener Neustadt Ost, Austria
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