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Part-ML and inflating CAMO cost

I am with a CAMO which is attached to my maintenance organisation. Which so far has worked well. Pricing has remained stable in the last years. I have known them for years and they know me. So there is quite a level of trust. Well spent money so far.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

@Airborne_Again wrote:

We’ve seen a similar increase (+60%).

Do you expect this to be only this year, or for ever ?

@UdoR wrote:

I’ve started on 700EUR/yr now, new contract 2021

Why have you chosen to go with a CAMO instead of your own, I mean, was it only a way to feel “supported” in ownership?
Is the CAMO attached to the mechanics shop as for me ?

@Snoopy
I think I now have the concepts in mind. In my case: the aircraft is owned by a society and I am the sole shareholder. The society aims at renting its aircraft to other pilots and schools. For years, the aircraft was maintained as part-M with a CAMO (with MF/MG agreements), and it’s now transitioning to Part-ML in a CAO (very same shop). Which means a controlled environnement due to my allegedly “commercial operations”.

Those days, I wonder if I shouldn’t consider a significant step: assuming airworthiness on my own and pass orders to an independant part-66 mechanics on my field.
Let’s be clear, I don’t want to improvise, I would mainly stuck with MM, as I have always done. The point is: why would I pay 1300€+tax to have seo take the liability to delay my propellor governor overhaul by a year (ie a deviation, what happened this year). I should as well overhaul it when it’s due: better pay actual work than paper work.
I need to assess what part of my activity would have to stop, hence my need to understand what commercial operations are.

@boscomantico, pointed us toward Part-NCO decryption some years ago.
One could read about the definition of commercial operations, which I struggle with:

The Air Ops Regulation defines “commercial air transport” as “an aircraft operation to transport passengers, cargo or mail for remuneration or other valuable consideration”.

The Basic Regulation defines a “commercial operation” as “*any operation of an aircraft, in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration, which is available to the public or, when not made available to the public, which is performed under a contract between an operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator*”.

(Note, however, the lack of clarity over who the operator is, as discussed in the background section above.)

It would be fair to say that a non-commercial operation is one that is neither a commercial operation nor a commercial air transport operation.

These definitions are very broad, and so the Air Operations Regulation also sets out a number of types of operation that are to be operated under Part-NCO, even though strictly they fall under the definition of commercial operation or commercial air transport operation. These include:

flight training
cost-shared flights by private individuals, on the condition that the direct cost is shared by all the occupants of the aircraft, pilot included and the number of persons sharing the direct costs is limited to six;
competition flights or flying displays, on the condition that the remuneration or any valuable consideration given for such flights is limited to recovery of direct costs and a proportionate contribution to annual costs, as well as prizes of no more than a value specified by the competent authority;
introductory flights, parachute dropping, sailplane towing or aerobatic flights performed either by [an ATO], or by an organisation created with the aim of promoting aerial sport or leisure aviation, on the condition that the aircraft is operated by the organisation on the basis of ownership or dry lease, that the flight does not generate profits distributed outside of the organisation, and that whenever non-members of the organisation are involved, such flights represent only a marginal activity of the organisation.
These operations are also treated as non-commercial for the purposes of the Aircrew Regulation, i.e. they are within the privileges of a PPL holder, as well as falling under Part-NCO

I’m still unsure:

  • when I rent my aircraft to an ATO, is it flight training ? (though the ATO may demand the enrollment in a CAMO/CAO)
  • when I rent to PPL/CPL holder for private flights, does the client have any control on the operator ? (this sentence is obscure)

I had an idea this morning. My renters are faithful and have been with me for years. The idea was to sell to each of them 1% of the society. It needs some registration paperwork, but in the end, they would definitely have a control over the operator. I’m waiting for your opinions

PS: just a quick survey @peter, @boscomantico. How many years ago since your last propeller, governor and engine overhaul ? Any owner is welcome to answer

Last Edited by PetitCessnaVoyageur at 22 May 13:25

How many years ago since your last propeller, regulator and engine overhaul

Prop was done ~ 5 years ago, with I think 7-8 years on it, and was done due to too much damage from rocks.

The governor was done with the exchange engine, 2017, in the US. No reason.

The engine was exchanged in 2017, with the previous approaching 2k hrs.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

(For recall, propeller should be 6 years, governor 5 years in my case, I guess you too Peter ?)

My prop is is now 16 years SNEW, with nothing except ocassional dressing and touching up the paint on the edges. Very happy with it.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

My prop was overhauled in 2013, and the engine was assembled new in 1971, and never completely apart since. The aircraft is maintained based on my evaluation of condition in real time and is inspected by a government authorized individual annually… just like most light planes that aren’t subject to the aberrant CAMO system that operates in Europe.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 22 May 14:02

PetitCessnaVoyageur wrote:

Which means a controlled environnement due to my allegedly “commercial operations”.

That’s only commercial in a general „business sense“. From an aviation law perspective it is NCO / Non Commercial and other than Complex Operation.

when I rent my aircraft to an ATO, is it flight training ? (though the ATO may demand the enrollment in a CAMO/CAO)

Yes. The ATO (except if they are a non profit club) needs to verify the plane is under CAO/CAMO. The ATO would probably be deemed the operator in court if someone was to get hurt. I mention this because it’s the operator who is accountable (if owner = operator, voila).

when I rent to PPL/CPL holder for private flights, does the client have any control on the operator ? (this sentence is obscure)

No, he does not.

I had an idea this morning. My renters are faithful and have been with me for years. The idea was to sell to each of them 1% of the society. It needs some registration paperwork, but in the end, they would definitely have a control over the operator. I’m waiting for your opinions

Maybe use a CAO/CAMO that will work with you to create a senseful AMP.

Most expensive, but „tidiest“ is to go with MLA302e, with or without CAMO.

Or go ML, self decl. AMP that makes sense, and put the plane in a dedicated Ltd and sell shares.

Only issue I’d question is if a judge would let the 95% shareholder off the hook (eg in case of really dodgy maintenance and an unairworthy plane, and a 1%er getting hurt/killed). It could be deemed as a way to shed accountability because of dodgy maintenance and prove to be in vain.

Last Edited by Snoopy at 22 May 14:49
always learning
LO__, Austria

Silvaire wrote:

just like most light planes that aren’t subject to the aberrant CAMO system that operates in Europe.

Most planes in Europe have nothing to do with a CAMO.

Part ML and FAA 91 ops Maintenance is quite similar now.
Annual inspection (100h/1y), airworthiness limitations+ad followed, rest voluntarily.

Last Edited by Snoopy at 22 May 14:52
always learning
LO__, Austria

Most planes in Europe have nothing to do with a CAMO.

And most planes in Europe had nothing to do with a CAMO before part-ML too.

Saying the CAMO system is aberrant is like saying it is aberrant to pay someone to do your taxes because you’d rather spend your time otherwise.

T28
Switzerland

And most planes in Europe had nothing to do with a CAMO before part-ML too.

Is there some data from that survey?

It is like this topic

I would think the vast majority of EASA-reg planes in Europe are under the totally full Part M system.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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