Necessity to have actual AIRAC database on board and interval of database updates

There are loads of aircraft flying around the UK fitted with GNS430 units with the database way out of date, and plenty of them probably fly IFR.

For any practical purposes I don’t think people pay a huge amount of attention to it, at least not here.

I appreciate the legal situation may be different.

Enroute, it will work for ever, and you don’t need a database to fly an ILS. What I don’t know is how long before Garmin block the RNAV (GPS) approaches, after database expiry. As per the linked thread, I established a minimum time on the KLN94 but not the time after which it actually happens.

My group aircraft had KNS80 & “old unsupported VFR GPS” many years before getting an IFR GPS
In UK that is fine for RNAV5 under FL100 (you need a code in FPL but ATC won’t look at it)
- You rarely get Direct-To to pure RNAV Waypoints except to hit FIR or OCAS boundries
- It’s radar vectors in CAS anyway untill you hit FIR or OCAS boundries
- You never get to fly SID & STAR on Conv or RNP1
- You can IFR OCAS takeoff, en-route or descente

Peter wrote:

and you don’t need a database to fly an ILS

Maybe try ILS25 at LFPN? it’s RNP INA intial approach & Radar Vector in middle & ILS FNA final approche
It seems one needs an up to date GPS for that, but not sure if they need SBAS/RAIM ?

In the US, the limitations section in an AFMS is regulatory and is required by the FAA to be complied with. Other sections of the AFMS are not mandatory.

Peter wrote:

Enroute, it will work for ever

Not really, the enroute airways and waypoint structure in the areas I know well has completely changed in the last 10 years.

UdoR wrote:

However, the rule is the same: database may not be expired by more than 28 days.

Correct. This is what the AMC says, derived from the law, without any better way of communicating the latter (such as precedences, for instance).

arj1 wrote:

as it is an AMC, does that mean that I can develop my own AMC (for example, verify that ALL points I can use a flight are still correct) and fly with any old database?

“Your own” AMC isn’t possible (but I know what you mean → an AltMoC). This is where it gets tricky with a bit of imagination. How would you verify the points? With an iPad and some Nav App? That’s non certified, so if something was missed, it won’t look good. Using the AIP perhaps? Arduous – Comparing every coordinate in your GNSS… However way you do it, there’s a catch: If nothing happens, your AltMoC is fine (I’d be genuinely interested how to formulate one, to present it in case of a ramp check). On the other hand, if something happens, and only then, will you find out if you followed the law or not. And the law says current or verified + max. expiry 28 days. So you’re on the hook. And expert witnesses are good in construing some contributing factors in court.

Since AMCs are non-binding, regulated persons may choose alternative means to comply with the rule. In this case, however, they lose the presumption of compliance provided by the EASA AMC, and need to demonstrate to competent authorities that they do comply with the law.

To be safe, you could try to file the AltMoC with your competent authority and see what they say.

Graham wrote:

There are loads of aircraft flying around the UK fitted with GNS430 units with the database way out of date, and plenty of them probably fly IFR.

For any practical purposes I don’t think people pay a huge amount of attention to it, at least not here.

Interesting. Wouldn’t work well for long when flying RNP approach transitions and approaches.

UdoR wrote:

As this is not distinguished in between enroute part and approaches, for instance, I would have to mark the GPS as INOP if it’s not up-to-date?

A sticker with “AIRAC database expired, do not use for primary navigation” perhaps? IIRC it only applies to AIRAC navdata, not to basemap, terrain and obstacles, so you could still use it for VFR.

In the end, like so often, the question is if the trouble is worth the money saved.

Wouldn’t work well for long when flying RNP approach transitions and approaches.

@Snoopy, do you have actual data? I would be really useful to post it here.

Snoopy wrote:

In the end, like so often, the question is if the trouble is worth the money saved.

I could pay for the subscription and update the nav data IF it was my aircraft, but how could you possibly do it in a rental?
Keeping in mind that if data is really old, it might require a software upgrade on a GNS as well.

My interest in using an out of date database comes up in a few situations, even though I maintain a current subscription. One can be on a trip and not able to update the database during the trip because of not having a good internet service or forgot to do the update or special equipment needed for an update is not available. The other situation is flying in an aircraft that is for sale and the seller has not kept the database current. In most cases, it is extremely easy to verify major navigation points such as VOR locations and for RNAV (GPS) procedures, they remain the same for years at a time. If the procedure has changed, you can’t use it, but in the majority of cases the procedure has not changed since the database was last updated. On a given flight, it only takes a few minutes to validate the usability of GPS based waypoints needed for a flight.