We are constantly pecked on though
Not on EuroGA, I hope!
Pilot: Flying straight and level in complex machines ,on autopilot for hours and hours feeling important
That is very far from reality but hey let’s not worry about that right now 
There is a good correlation between IR holders / aircraft owners and those who are willing to hit the keyboard and write some good stuff. Just a correlation… but it does explain why if one is trying to run a polite and informative forum one does end up with a lot of IR holders / aircraft owners. Probably because these are the people who have dragged themselves through the biggest pile of hassle to get where they are, and writing something about it comes naturally. Conversely if one is trying to run a forum which maximises advertisement clicks, one has to de-moderate it a lot and then one will end up with a different poster profile… and a lot of abuse etc.
Peter wrote:
Probably because these are the people who have dragged themselves through the biggest pile of hassle to get where they are, and writing something about it comes naturally. Conversely if one is trying to run a forum which maximises advertisement clicks, one has to de-moderate it a lot and then one will end up with a different poster profile… and a lot of abuse etc.
Exactly what I was fishing for “Someone” (about 5% of the GA community) has this implicit notion that what everybody else also is thriving for as the ultimate goal, is to eventually end up in a TBM or a biz jet cruising at 20k+ on an IFR FP. The reality couldn’t be further away. Also, what you are saying about forums isn’t true. Vans Air Force has had it going for ages, and it is exactly as polite and infinitely more informative than this place when it comes to Vans experimental aircraft, building and flying them (only naturally, but still). There are local face book groups for all kinds of experimentals and microlights, the same politeness and informative attitude there (it’s more a matter how much you can stand face book itself). Also what are the largest world wide events in GA, by orders of magnitude? Oshkosh, Aero, Sun’n fun etc. All “aviator” stuff.
What I’m getting at is some people really are “pilots”, while others are “aviators”. It’s not something that is made up out of nothing. Some like to push a whole bunch of buttons in the correct order while looking at dials and screens in a “high class” tourer, others like to nail a perfect landing on a 200m grass strip with just stick and rudder and the feel of the aircraft. Most of us are amateurs, busy with job and family, flying way too little to become bush plane virtuoso or Red Bull air racing pilots. Nevertheless, that (or similar stuff) is the ultimate goal, the pinnacle of perfection, even though most will only reach a fraction of the way to get there before we turn in the licenses In addition, and God forbid, we actually love just being in the air, being free just flying alone like a bird, no strings attached, no where to go, just flying plain and simple in harmony with the aircraft and the air.
Being polite are whatever has nothing to do with this, I have not seen any relationship whatsoever. However, “aviators” normally gather for experimental and microlights (European microlight), gliders and other Annex II types, while “pilots” normally gather for Cirrus types. That’s just the way it is. That is the difference right there. But make no mistake. If I couldn’t build my own planes, if I couldn’t tow some gliders, if I couldn’t hop around in a Cub or a microlight in all sorts of “impossible places” and so on. If I could’t do that, I would never do this, then I wouldn’t be flying. IFR in a Cirrus doesn’t interest me one bit. It’s almost as if I feel sorry for people who are drawn to it. What is wrong with them I often think to myself. The plane itself is interesting with the performance, the engine and stuff, but you cannot do anything with it, it’s no fun, it’s only deadly serious “pilot” stuff, best suited for someone who carries someone or something from A to B for a living.
When you say “because these are the people who have dragged themselves through the biggest pile of hassle to get where they are”, I say “what in God’s name had made you want to go there in the first place?”
Anyway, if people want to be serious “pilots”, that’s their choice. People are free to be happy any way they chose (as long as it doesn’t hurt others), and are free to define happiness in their own way. But please, stop pretending most of GA pilots, me included, share the same dream. We don’t, we have very different dreams, and we also have a different realm of what we want to be good at, what we want to do.
Vans Air Force has had it going for ages, and it is exactly as polite and infinitely more informative than this place when it comes to Vans experimental aircraft,
Along with many others here, LeSving, I applaud your enthusiasm for freedom in its various forms. Let’s face it – all of us are doing this for the freedom it gives us, along with other reasons.
But I suggest you cut back a bit on the disingenuity, because it was you who pushed hard for the Non Certified forum 
I then spent hours going through 3-4 years of past posts (the current total is 140125 posts) and moved as much as I could of relevance into it. And now you complain…
EuroGA is a community which is no more and no less than what the contributors make it.
Let me let you into another little secret. The big US forums are polite, sure. Do you know why? It is because they carry advertising and/or get revenue from other less direct sources. Vans right now has 42 adverts on the page, each one paying at least a few hundred $ a month. So when you visit it, they make money from you. These sites employ paid moderators who watch it 24/7 and very very quickly remove any troublemaker. I once saw a Belgian pilot removed from Beechtalk. I don’t read it much nowadays but happened to be on there at the time. He was gone in under an hour – so fast all that all you could see was a cloud of dust. So the occassional visitors (probably the 99%) see a very polite forum And, as on virtually all forums, any disagreement with a mod is an instant ban and no discussion is entered into (a large forum cannot be run any other way, practically speaking, due to the small but finite % of troublemakers who would consume a lot of resources). When aviation debate was on Usenet (which was genuinely unmoderated) the US sites were suffering quite badly from bad behaviour. I know – I was on them for 10+ years. Eventually they collapsed under the weight of spam, among other factors like most good posters leaving.
Let’s not take this nice thread off topic any more. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of how forums work or how EuroGA could be improved, please start a thread under Hangar Talk or the Website section. David and I would be keen to hear your (or anybody else’s) ideas.
LeSving wrote:
What I’m getting at is some people really are “pilots”, while others are “aviators”. It’s not something that is made up out of nothing. Some like to push a whole bunch of buttons in the correct order while looking at dials and screens in a “high class” tourer, others like to nail a perfect landing on a 200m grass strip with just stick and rudder and the feel of the aircraft.
You act like the two are mutually exclusive. They aren’t.
I’m VFR only and have a big mouth! You can too, just requires a little effort, that’s all! Long distance VFR touring is one of life’s greatest pleasures. A instrument rating just ruins it. (Edit: in fact I would love an IR and a plane equipped accordingly for the flexibility that would result….)
The big secret of the IR is that you spend most of the time in VMC – because you get unrestricted access to controlled airspace
A lot of the time one is flying the same route which one would fly VFR.
CharlieRomeo wrote:
From the impression I got while browsing the forums, I seem to be at the rather “low-end”, compared to the average poster.All my training and flying is done with the club,
So far I did not do much touring, but this is what I would like to do in the future, the aircraft in question being the club Arrow I, which is IFR capable.
Hmmm, that would make me “low, low-end” then, having only half your hours. I’ve found this forum informative both in terms of being able to ask a few ‘simple’ questions and to read about the exploits of more seasoned aviators.
Like you I want to do some touring. Nothing too adventurous to start with but stretching the limits of the PPL by getting comfortable with a 2 -3 hour cross country trip in UK, the Channel Islands and the continent. When I got my PPL I wanted to quickly get away from reliance on club aircraft mainly because of cost and partly to be able to take the aircraft away for a night or two (and the Club’s 28 day rule that cost me £100 every few weeks because I couldn’t get airborne in week 4).
Having achieved that (non-equity share) not having a Club owner or Instructor around also made me think carefully about my planning. For example a decision about weather being marginal was now mine alone. I have pulled out of a couple of potentially good flying opportunities because I wasn’t sure! I also quickly realised how very localised poor weather could ruin my plans when everywhere else was CAVOK – a fact which, oddly, I did not grasp during my training. So the benefits if an IR soon became obvious.
Unfortunately I can’t commit the hours to get an IR all done in a sensible period of time. Perhaps that will change but I’m content to fly VFR, there are more than enough challenges for now, and since I can commit to 15+ hours of training I plan to go for the IR(R) soon to improve my skills and the safety margin if the weather closes in.
I suspect there are a lot of newish pilots like me (I can’t claim to be an aviator ) who are enjoying the privileges of their ‘licence to learn’ as quickly as their circumstances or bank balance will allow …. and benefiting from the wisdom, experience and occasional humour shared on EuroGa!
Everyone starts “low end”.
The problem with the PPL training machine is that it doesn’t generally prepare one for going anywhere. There is no business incentive for it, for a start. And since most people give up early, why should they? They don’t want to turn a €10k PPL into a €20k PPL.
And that is where an informative site like EuroGA comes in. We also have great meet-ups. Often there is a spare seat.
I learnt just about everything I know from the internet, not from any flying school And so did most people I know who “go places”.
The other way to learn is from a mentor, but they are not all that common. There is no established machinery for finding them (flying schools discourage them hanging around) and the one attempt I know of to formalise it (AOPA UK) has failed due to it being over-complicated.
I can’t claim to be an aviator
The “aviators” I know are propping up the airport bar. Some stories are real, most are not, but all are fun
The problem with the PPL training machine is that it doesn’t generally prepare one for going anywhere.
Yes, and that came as a bit of a disappointment to me because the first thing in wanted do with my licence was go somewhere new – and I had more questions than answers!!!
Knowing what I know now, during the PLL training, I’d be asking for training flights through controlled airspace and to airfields that are more than 30 minutes away – you can always practice a few stalls, steep turns and PFLs on the way. This would have been far better preparation for my post licence ambitions. I can’t actually think why an instructor might refuse??
Fortunately someone in the club who had a bit of experience told me ‘master the radio’, which I now think was great advice because it helped remove one of the potential mental barriers to ‘going places’.
The other way to learn is from a mentor,
Agreed! I doubt they would want to be thought of as mentors but I have been fortunate to meet a few seasoned pilots who are more than willing to share the cockpit and their experience. I would encourage every new PPL to do the same.
At our flying club we have a series of club fly outs of progressive difficulty to encourage people to use their license and go further afield. We have planning evenings, a briefing before each fly out, and then we try to pair up experienced with less experienced pilots. We also encourage participation of students. We have been running this program for three or four years now, and it has proved extremely popular. We have also decided to open it up to pilots from other clubs wishing to join us, though, where possible, we would ask them to attend the briefing sessions! Perhaps you could ask if there is anything similar at your flying club?
