Airborne_Again wrote:
What would be the point of Langen FIS trying to coordinate or handing you over to a military controller when from the outset it is clear that the answer will be “no”?
Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion 
If you don’t ask, you won’t get it !
Maybe FIS/ATC are not aware of that AIP entry 
? I would just ask while in the air and hope to get something while saving some time, however, for fuel & weather planning, I start with the assumption that FIS/ATC will not help much, it saves from dispaointment, especially on VFR flights…
Airborne_Again wrote:
Whether or not you think that’s reasonable, that’s the situation, documented in the AIP. What would be the point of Langen FIS trying to coordinate or handing you over to a military controller when from the outset it is clear that the answer will be “no”?That’s for sure a fair point, but when you’re otherwise trying to avoid VFR into IMC, there should be some kind of “option” and not just an “there is nothing I can do for you”. My biggest mistake was, that I wasn’t aware of the fact that TRAs are prohibited airspace in Germany, at least for VFR-traffic. I shouldn’t have flown on top in the first place, as there is no possible routing outside of the TRA Friesland, starting at FL80.
Frans wrote:
That’s for sure a fair point, but when you’re otherwise trying to avoid VFR into IMC, there should be some kind of “option” and not just an “there is nothing I can do for you”
Why you think FIS/ATC will do anything for airspace acess because “you are VFR trying to avoid IMC”?
It’s a harsh truth but that is what it is, if you can’t climb, descend, turn back while staying out of “restricted airspace” it’s 100% PIC problem not ATC/FIS problem
Some FIS/ATC are “friendly and have more understanding” of the average GA pilot/aircraft limitation, but it’s not always the case, some FIS/ATC will not “help VFR near IMC” unless he is on 7700, other ATC will vector or hold you dead at icing level in busy TMA while IFR in C172 with a big smile…
PS: it can happen in France as well, this was an ATPL holder, SEIR, MEIR, PPLH, 1100h TT, 200TT on DA42, 27h in last 90days, 14h on last 30days with 100k of Garmin avionics, he apparently did not understand airspace structure and what SIV/FIS can do and cannot do for him, he asked FIS (who are not ATC) for VFR above FL115 to “avoid clouds”, he was well rated/equipped for IFR flying in empty airpace with probably no other single traffic around in 300nm radius and +/-5kft
He did not have much choices: IFR at FL140, VFR at FL135, illegal VFR in clouds far from terrain, illegal VFR in clouds near terrain (what he did), VFR turn back…having been in similar situation, I know exactly what to pick out of the 5 options if FIS/ATC does not help
https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2007/d-us070606/pdf/d-us070606.pdf
These issues can happen anywhere. It is absolutely right to highlight them, because the ATCO goes home at the end of the day, while the pilot may be dead. There in’t always a Plan B (within what is reasonable in terms of preflight briefing, in today’s complex and often indeterminate “everything on the internet, somewhere, and we know where, and everybody is also supposed to know” climate). And I have pointed out this little factoid (about ending up dead while the ATCO goes home) to a few ATCOs over the years
I have posted a fair few outrageous sound tracks here, and regret not having recorded some of the best ones
Ibra wrote:
It’s harsh truth but that is what it is, if you can’t climb, descend, turn back it’s 100% PIC problem not ATC problemYes, I acknowledged that by now.
FIS could also continue offering weather information or something that might help the PIC, but nevermind… In the end, I was still legal (even with cloud separation) at FL79, so nothing happened. Lessons learned.
Sometimes FIS could be helpful & friendly but you will have a slow process (London FIS will always come back will do their best to sort out any pop-up clearance you want for Plan B when Plan A does not work, maybe too late as by then you are 100nm away or already landed, you have given up on Plan A & B and went for Plan C )
In France, it works in most of places with FIS because some of them are actually 1/2 ATC (most SIV who do FIS for VFR will do ATC for IFR in Echo/Golf, so they can open some gates here & there including nearby RA/TRA but it’s hard to know how far they can go?), I am not sure if Langen Information has a similar mandate? or it’s “pure info”?
Langen Information is FIS-only, but they do have radar screens and direct phone lines to ATC. In France, FIS is indeed mostly ATC as well. As with SIV-stations, the Approach and FIS-frequencies are identical. That’s why clearances into CAS are often implied in France, at least when it comes to airspace Delta. It is starting to get tricky with restricted areas. Some LF-R zones can be cleared by normal ATC, other LF-R zones need to be cleared by a dedicated military controller.
Frans wrote:
That’s for sure a fair point, but when you’re otherwise trying to avoid VFR into IMC, there should be some kind of “option” and not just an “there is nothing I can do for you”.
If you really can’t avoid IMC without entering the TRA, just declare an emergency. Then everything will be served to you on a silver platter, but you may have to answer some hard questions about your flight planning afterwards.
On another note: I think it’s very tricky that every country handles a “TRA” differently. Pilots from abroad, how don’t know Germany and didn’t read the entire AIP, might get into big trouble.
Well… It’s no different from restricted areas in general (in fact, the German TRAs are R-areas, with a proper R-area number). You can never expect to be allowed to cross an R-area when it is active unless the AIP has information to the contrary. I certainly would never expect permission to cross an active TRA without checking the rules first.
This is the official ICAO definition of a TRA:
“Temporary reserved area (TRA) is airspace temporarily reserved and allocated for the specific use of a particular user for a determined period of time and through which other traffic may be allowed to transit under ATC clearance.”
And this the official ICAO definition of a TSA:
“Temporary segregated airspace (TSA) is airspace temporarily segregated and allocated for the exclusive use of a particular user during a determined period of time and through which other traffic will not be allowed to transit.”
In a normal case, a transit through TRAs should be possible. If all other traffic needs to be banned, it should (according to ICAO standards) be classified as a TSA. Germany uses TRAs like TSAs, except for some IFR traffic with pre-arranged and coordinated clearances.
Exactly.
