I thought liberty was from French/Latin while freedom is a Germanic word. In dialect and older forms of Norwegian we have “fridom” (pronounced as the English freedom) and the opposite: “trelldom”. The meaning of “fridom” is bound to be free. “Trelldom” means bound to be (a) “trell” ( a “trell” means a slave). In more modern form we have “frihet”, influenced from modern German I guess?
gallois wrote:
All of these groups felt that their liberties, their freedoms woul be curtailed by the choice the others were making.
That became even more the case when governing bodies introduced or changed laws, which meant that a small number of people (lawmakers and law enforcers) had curtailed and were curtailing the freedom of many more people.
It’s a good example, and there are others, even more recent.
The “Woke” movement and it’s exponents are indeed starting to impose some sort of thought policing into their actions, which are a frontal attack of the liberty of culture, expression and thought. Apparently nothing and nobody is exempt from their wrath and their fury. The scary bit however is, that the publishing industry and the media bow to them and let themselfs be frightened into cancelling out books and movies which belong to the culture of literally billions of people, all because some shit-stormers on social media start bitching about racial or society concerns.
If ever something we have discussed here has deserved the term Tyranny, than imho this is it. The tyranny of a few people thinking they own morale over all the others.
What is going on in Germany at this stage, where books are being banned from sale, popular movies from the 1960ties and 70ties which have been shown 1000’s of times without anyone complaining are pulled by public TV stations, cultural heritage is being cancelled and shunned on the basis of a few shit-stormers, then how far away are we from the book-burnings of the 1930ties? Banning authors like Karl May, who in all his works of FICTION still stood for peace between people and races, is simply cowardly and dead wrong. Cancelling out authors of childrens fiction such as J.K Rowling for expressing an opinion, forbidding white musicians to play Reaggea music, banning books, films and music on the base of political corectness leads down a path with will eventually cause social explosions.
What is next? Already, some exponents demand blankett bans on carnival costumes decipting characters from Western movies for children, the banning of thousands more books and authors like “Never ending story”, like all of Enid Blyton’s and Astrid Lindgren’s works (in the childrens department) and so on. Where is this leading?
“Where books are burning, people will burn next”. That quote still is very true.
IMHO, if a few loud shit stormers can shut down publishers and TV stations, maybe those who think this is totally unacceptable should think about launching something like a hurricane on those and tell them what we think of it.
The “Woke” movement and it’s exponents are indeed starting to impose some sort of thought policing into their actions, which are a frontal attack of the liberty of culture, expression and thought. Apparently nothing and nobody is exempt from their wrath and their fury. The scary bit however is, that the publishing industry and the media bow to them and let themselfs be frightened into cancelling out books and movies which belong to the culture of literally billions of people, all because some shit-stormers on social media start bitching about racial or society concerns.
It is very hard to follow media trends in say Germany when most media is behind paywalls – just like in the UK where you can find only the Daily Dirt Digger and the Official Organ of the Communist Party of Great Britain, but here there are beginnings of a big pushback against all that crap. About time, too, with children having chemical treatment, and even surgery.
Peter wrote:
… with children having chemical treatment, and even surgery.
Things like that particularly worry me also. But fortunately, in speaking to a psychotherapist friend who specializes on this very topic, she told me that where she works kids are really being put to the test as to their motivations. Add a waiting list for any kind of surgery, so gender change is not easy-peasy.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
The “Woke” movement and it’s exponents are indeed starting to impose some sort of thought policing into their actions, which are a frontal attack of the liberty of culture, expression and thought. Apparently nothing and nobody is exempt from their wrath and their fury
Have you heard about the saying, it goes something like this “It’s better to lit a candle, than to curse the darkness” 
There’s another one also, don’t remember exactly but something like “If you stare too long into the darkness, the darkness starts staring into you”. If you think about it, these kind of things are diseases on their own, fixations on darkness and evil, even if one is against this darkness and evil. The only cure is positive thinking and positive actions.
I broadly agree that we are too ‘woke’ these days, but would point out that you can be ‘woke’ and censorious from any extreme of the political spectrum. It’s just we notice and object to it more when it comes from the other team. JK Rowling seems to be coming in for lots of flak at the moment for some of her views on transgender issues, but just a few years ago she was being banned by religious people who felt that they would lead children into the occult.
Personally I think that the puritanical streak has led us to the current position where in many countries we have a choice of political leaders who are too ‘pure’ to be effectual, leaving the path clear for those who are utterly shameless and without principle.
kwlf wrote:
I broadly agree that we are too ‘woke’ these days, but would point out that you can be ‘woke’ and censorious from any extreme of the political spectrum. It’s just we notice and object to it more when it comes from the other team.
Absolutely, even though I am not on any “team” so to speak but simply disgusted with the way “cancel culture” is going left-right and center.
The attacks on cultural exponents, even some which have been dead for over a century, is however something I personally think very problematic. Apart from the fact that it totally reverses any efforts for a peaceful multi-cultural society (by disallowing e.g. white people to play reggae, by cancelling out people without even thinking about their message), it is totally appalling that a small vocal minority has enough clout to scare renowned publishers and TV stations to cancel programs or books which are world cultural heritage.
Peter wrote:
It is very hard to follow media trends in say Germany when most media is behind paywalls
Well, in short words: What happened is, that the woke brigades have targeted the works and movies made from the works of Karl May, which are hugely popular (and have been for over a century) May was famous as a travel writer, even though he made all of his books up as pure works of fiction, yet very deeply researched. Mays novels mainly play in the Orient and in North America, where he hugely popularized the “American Indian” population in Europe, mostly very favorably to the native Americans as they are called today and highly critical of the white conquerers. He was one of the first real pacifists, very religious too and his books are to this day quite relevant. May was honored by Native American tribes on several occasions, so they did not mind him at all, but appreciated his writings. The movies were part of most of our childhood and the people who acted in them became very much liked.
Now the books and films are attacked by the woke brigade and pushed out of publication and out of TV, as they claim only native Americans can write about Native Americans and because they bemoan the colonial background. Well, of all people, May is probably the worst example to shun, as he was highly critical of colonialism. It is pretty clear to me that these people have no idea what they are talking about but do it mostly for effect.
kwlf wrote:
JK Rowling seems to be coming in for lots of flak at the moment for some of her views on transgender issues, but just a few years ago she was being banned by religious people who felt that they would lead children into the occult.
What really annoyed me there was not so much the noise but the fact that people who know everything to her found it fit to turn on her, rather than to stand with the woman, without which they would be nobodies. Rowling expressed an opinion, a right denied to her by the wokes, and several of the main actors of her movies deemed fit to join the baying dogs. Personally, I find this disgusting. And it is one example leading back to the quote this discussion started with: If people get not merely attacked in discourse, but cancelled out and shunned publicly by even those closest to them for the fear of being shunned themselves (at least I have no other explanation for such behaviour) then we have a major problem.
It really concerns me to see how hate and dispise has infected society, mainly thanks to baying dogs on social media. That this now has reached a point where whole companies are throwing away their integrity and will to stand up for themselves rather than bow to these Orwellian thought-controllers is frightening. Fascism has many facettes and currently, the brands emerging are of a multitude and fanatism which can only lead in one direction. And it is not the one I want to go to.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
What really annoyed me there was not so much the noise but the fact that people who know everything to her found it fit to turn on her, rather than to stand with the woman, without which they would be nobodies.
I’m not sure that it’s a good principle that because they owe their success to her, they should avoid criticising her on that basis. She doesn’t own them or their own beliefs. Conversely, people who don’t owe their success to her, still owe her a duty of civility.
I think one of the actors put it more nicely: that she was like an aunt with whom one sometimes disagreed but for whom you retained a great deal of respect.
kwlf wrote:
I think one of the actors put it more nicely: that she was like an aunt with whom one sometimes disagreed but for whom you retained a great deal of respect.
Yes, that was Rupert Grint if I am not mistaken and he did very nicely, others however totally turned away from her and she was not part of the 20th anniversary celebrations as the film company got weak knees. Sorry, but that is exactly the form of cancel culture I am talking about.
kwlf wrote:
Conversely, people who don’t owe their success to her, still owe her a duty of civility.
Absolutely and that goes even more for those who do.
IMO people really need to read or listen carefully to what people actually write or say and not to someone elses interpretation of what is written or said. To that needs to be added context.
It appears to me that many these days have such fixed ideas that if somebody disagrees with those ideas, however reasonably, immediately becomes a target for derision, attack or cancellation.
I doubt whether many who have actually read what J K Rowlands said and the context in which it was said, could justify the agressive criticism she has received. Whether or not you agree with her.
