French clubs do have an insurance if one is stuck away from base due to weather or a technical problem. Actually its not much the club but the pilot.
When you join a club you also join the FFA. Part of membership is an insurance policy covering things like death or disabilitity or other things that might stop you from flying.
The insurance also covers a get you and your passengers (IIRC max 5) home service. So if you have say a technical problem or are stuck due to weather the insurance arranges and pays to get you and your passengers home (as French motor car insurance does). It also covers an engineer going to fix the plane (travel costs) and/or someone going to pick up the plane when fixed (again travel costs outside of the flying time of the stuck aircraft.)
The system works well and you just call the number on the FFA licence when you have a problem.
I can also do a 2 hour trip each way, without talking to anyone should I wish to do so. I simply have to avoid CAS or RAs by flying around them, over them or under them. Admittedly this is much more difficult in certain parts of France.
The Innsbruck runway was the one facing the city, but the reason to deny clearance for an intersection takeoff with a mile of runway remaining was a long explanation on Tower frequency of “reports of turbulence over the city” I was a bit dumbfounded hearing this, having no understanding of ATC’s relevance in this regard.
Well, I witnessed several times turbulence over the city of Innsbruck. The valley coming down from the Brenner tenda to act as a funnel for winds, which then mix exactly over the city. Add some Föhn and you get some quite strong turbulences there.
So in this case it could have been also for safety IMHO
Silvaire wrote:
ATC was a bit amazing, there was zero other traffic at Innsbruck either departing or arriving, it’s a sleepy regional airport. When arriving it seemed that tower called every turn and altitude change inbound and as I recall didn’t give a landing clearance until established on a very long final, photo below. I might be incorrect on the latter point, I’m going by memory. Anyway my reaction might have been to ask “could we maybe cut this short so can I just land now?”I’ve had similar experiences with Innsbruck Tower as well. Some of their ATCOs seem to have a bit of a teacher attitude and/or are pretty unfriendly. Once I landed there in 2019 with a licensed pilot on my right side, how did the radio work. We were already cleared to land on right base for runway 08. As also a glider came quite close from the other side, approaching the grass runway, my co-pilot called “turning base to final 08” on the radio, on which the ATC responded in a very loud and angry way: “Yes, I already cleared you to land!”. We just thought: Wow… what kind of a problem does this controller have? The frequency was not busy at all… Once on the ground, my co-pilot asked for a fuel tank, on which ATC responded quite annoyed: “We don’t have a fuel TANK, but if you mean a fuel TRUCK, then yes, I will order you a fuel TRUCK!”. The departure on the next day was also done in a bit unfriendly manner, but nothing special was said.
Nobody at Innsbruck was impolite at all, in fact ATC and security (you couldn’t enter the GA ramp without proving you were a licensed pilot + baggage scan) were all very polite indeed. The puzzling issue to me was that ATC seemed to think they were flying the plane, as opposed to perhaps advising the pilot that a SIGMET was in effect or providing pilot reports to the other pilots directly, for the pilot’s decision making.
Graham wrote:
Apart from anything else, renting costs twice per hour what the average group aircraft costs per hour.
I have a hard time believing that unless you’re talking about a for-profit rental. (Or marginal costs, but that’s hardly relevant.)
gallois wrote:
French clubs do have an insurance if one is stuck away from base due to weather or a technical problem. Actually its not much the club but the pilot.
When you join a club you also join the FFA. Part of membership is an insurance policy covering things like death or disabilitity or other things that might stop you from flying.
The insurance also covers a get you and your passengers (IIRC max 5) home service. So if you have say a technical problem or are stuck due to weather the insurance arranges and pays to get you and your passengers home (as French motor car insurance does). It also covers an engineer going to fix the plane (travel costs) and/or someone going to pick up the plane when fixed (again travel costs outside of the flying time of the stuck aircraft.)
That is really nice.
Silvaire wrote:
The puzzling issue to me was that ATC seemed to think they were flying the plane, as opposed to perhaps advising the pilot that a SIGMET was in effect or providing pilot reports to the other pilots directly, for the pilot’s decision making.
I am not surprised that this is strange for you, having experienced some of the US way ATC is done. It certainly is different.
Innsbruck, as I said before, is indeed a bit special and not really representative. As @lukepower sais, turbulence over the city is quite something to experience, it has to do with the topography. The tower crews at these alpine airports (Samedan is similar, even though only AFIS) do indeed know their airports and surroundings very well indeed, so if they tell me something to keep me safe, I usually listen to them. Given the fact that they have had their share of incidents and sometimes even got blamed for NOT interfering (even though they have no obligation to do that) I am not surprised they are now a tad more careful.
Or marginal costs, but that’s hardly relevant
The marginal cost of flying an extra hour is highly relevant to whether one will fly that extra hour or not, surely?
That is central to the owning v. renting debate.
Owning has the lowest marginal cost. Renting (doesn’t matter whether from a school or club – unless somebody is growing money in trees) has the highest marginal cost.
The result is readily seen everywhere.
1) Set up a climate where people rent → almost everyone does only short hops for a burger. It is quite good; almost nobody flies cross-border, no need to learn English or anything else. You can even have a get-you-home insurance policy!
2) Set up a climate where people own → stimulate longer and probably more interesting trips. But it needs a lot more work… and is vulnerable to various measures which are often discussed here on EuroGA (e.g. the French 24/48hr PN stuff which pretty well kills day trips).
1) is easy. It is what schools and aeroclubs do naturally. But 2) is hard to encourage. EuroGA tries its best 
but most GA pilots don’t know about EuroGA (which is why I try so hard to get people to distribute the leaflets, but 99% won’t do it) but there is no “establishment” reason to drive ownership. It comes only “inwardly” from potential owners… No business at your local airport will be pushing you to buy a plane (or even join a group), while many will try to discourage you (often by feeding you with BS, as I well remember).
Innsbruck, as I said before, is indeed a bit special and not really representative
Isn’t Innsbruck a “tight setup” where you can land but can’t park, because the local club did a deal with the airport to keep it for themselves? At least that’s how it always was, for years. A real shame; been there enough times by road and they do have space. Various previous threads. Maybe only in the winter but that’s a good time to go there, obviously.
Peter wrote:
We live in pretty depressing times, for all those who don’t have a load of money.
For some things money is a game changer, for others not. No money can buy you any security over the current wars, even though it makes the situation re energy prices less of a problem. Yes, these are depressing times indeed.
Peter wrote:
Spending money on GA is a long way down the list.2023 will be hard for most people.
Actually, I am telling myself, if I am not going to fly now and enjoy life a bit, then there may not be another chance.
2023 will be hard, yes. The question is how hard really. I am very curious (and anxious at the same time) about how this winter really will pass, what energy lapses we might have, blackouts (really?) and what else not? I am trying to prepare as good as I can, but who can really prepare for the possible escalations we face?
I guess what we need to do is keep our minds open and try to read the signals as good as anyone can, then take our decisions what to do about them.
The tower crews at these alpine airports (Samedan is similar, even though only AFIS) do indeed know their airports and surroundings very well indeed,
I’m sure they do, most tower staff know the surroundings, but that is not the issue. The issue is properly understanding their authority and role, and the pilots authority and role. Creativity is a great thing generally, but not in ATC operations.
There are quite obviously a lot of people in European aviation who make up their own job description and improperly impose their self appointed authority on others. The root cause is probably boredom resulting from over staffing. Innsbruck is a sleepy airport that probably only has a tower as a result of a few commercial flights a day. That doesn’t properly expand the ATC role to flying the plane.
The lack of understanding of the concept above seems to be central to the problem under discussion, by which I mean lack of public interest in participating in an activity with arbitrary, unreasonable and often completely unnecessary processes and regulation. That then creates more boredom in those trying to extract a living from it, and more nonsense, in a kind of feedback loop.
It’s a testament to people’s individual determination that GA exists at all in such an annoying setup.
AdamFrisch wrote:
Maybe it’s my older age as well, but I’ve never felt such doomsday vibes as now. I feel we’re entering into at the very least a deep depression (think the 30’s) and at worst, WWIII. I’m taking precautions by selling a lot of things – including the plane.
I fully understand that and I agree. Now is indeed the time when you may recover some of the monies spent, as long as the market is still good. I was thinking along the same lines and I have a “crisis” so to speak of my own while trying to get my insurance claim sorted over the prop strike. I might recover the money if I were to sell, but I’d have to invest in a respray first to get a good price. So for now, I am trying to pay up what I get saddled with after that accident and then try to enjoy the airplane at least until the end of 2023 when I will be outpriced at my homebase and have to move. But if someone offers me good money, I am sorely tempted to pull the plug.
As for doomsday vibes, I hear you. Again I agree. It is totally crazy that we are back in a situation (or worse) where a nuclear confrontation or a conventional war extending over Europe is a distinct possibility and where quite a few players in the games of power chess are emboldened by the current situation. Quite a lot is at stake and the uncertainty of whether forces of reason will prevail over hatred and power play is definitely nagging on our confidence.
What worries me more almost however is how extremely confrontational our society has become. It is scary to see that political parties not only in the US but all over the place are moving further and further away from politics of consent and purpose towards open hostility and outright hate between the political sides. It is scary that a larger and larger group of people appear to believe into most crazy conspiracies and outlandish rubbish theories just because they fit their own rage and dissatisfaction and give them something to focus their frustration in. IMHO this is the even larger danger than someone pressing “the button” in which case most likely mankind would cease to exist in it’s current form. But what I do see in immediate danger is the way how democracy has been the foundation of how our societies have worked over the last decades we can remember. What is happening here reminds me strongly of the very ugly happenings of the last century where hate and territorial ambition lead the world into a world wide conflict. By the looks of it, we are darn close to see the next of those.
Remember the climate kids shouting “how dare they” at us? Well right now, we should be shouting this at the war mongers and at those who are ready to sacrifice all we have achieved in the last decades to fulfill their own ambitions and largely abhorrent worldviews. Extremism used to be something reserved for terrorists and religious zealots, today, it is infesting formerly “normal” political processes to the point of inability to govern in any meaningful way. IMHO, this has to be stopped. Now. Or else GA will be the very least in our minds other than possibly trying to escape to seemingly greener pastures…
