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GA activity and its decline

And if Annex II get IFR,

I believe you can fly airways in a Piper Apache if fitted with 8.33 etc, this would also apply to a Cessna 195, and if your heart was set on it, to Pacers, Stinsons, Austers and C-170s.

I mention the first two as they will already be plumbed for IFR, and only typically require a Garmin IFR gps for BRNAV, 8.33 comms and Mode S.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

I look at what some of my friends are spending on car leases (£550 per month) and on boats, and I’m not sure it’s a question of money. I too scratch my head as to why the numbers are declining. Maybe they are declining to a more ‘normal’ baseline as the numbers where inflated by the post war excess of pilots!?

Great Oakley, U.K. & KTKI, USA

GBP550 in leasing gets you a lot more car candy than plane candy. Also you don’t need to go through GBP of training in order to be allowed to enjoy it.

Last Edited by Shorrick_Mk2 at 04 Jun 12:59

I have been offered King Airs (seriously) for about the value of the two PT6s.

But those must have had some other problems. A good King Air can not be found cheap. Last were we were researching the market for a customer who wanted to install some kind of corporate shuttle between two small airfields several times per week. A KA 200 would have been the optimum aeroplane for that. He didn’t care much about the inside and outside condition and wanted the capital cost as low as possible – ideally a plane for the price of the two engines as you say. But we were unable to find such a specimen in Europe!

EDDS - Stuttgart

You won’t find them openly for sale, probably for the same reason you won’t find similarly shagged SEPs openly for sale IF the seller doesn’t want the world to know he is selling up.

I think most planes for sale are never openly advertised, for reasons like that. If e.g. you post a message on any type specific user group saying you are looking for Plane X, you will get a fair number of PMs from people who are active there and who would never say it openly.

Anyway, next time you want a KA or a TBM you know where to find me – my intro fee is very competitive… a 10% time share (with zero equity participation) for the first five years

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

An old Garrett engined King Air was useful for some testing at work – it was an ex US Army U21, as I remember an unpressurized version. It also had gear legs visibly different on left and right sides! OK for the Army but not under the civilian type certificate, so it operated on a permit of some kind. Cheap, $200 or 250K I think, and did the job

An old Garrett engined King Air …

The King Air 100 as far as I know. There have been some of those on the German Register, so there must be a civilian version. Not a bad aeroplane, Garrett Engines are actually better than PT6 in some respects – especially fuel efficiency – but worse in others. Especially noise, which is why they disappeared from this part of the world. Not being pressurised didn’t help either.

EDDS - Stuttgart

Hull values are going down into the realm of the ridiculous due to the fact that nobody buys but lots of people pack up and sell. It still is very much a buyer´s market out there, particularly for airframes NOT on planecheck and equal platforms but such which are in the need of avionik upgrades or engine overhauls.

Prices for avionic upgrades in Europe have reached the realm where relatively straightforward installations exceed the hull value of the airplane in question rather quickly. So people who e.g. wish to upgrade from a VFR to IFR airplane often are much better off sellng their airplanes and getting an already fully equipped and certified one. However, that is also no easy feat because almost all current IFR airframes will again need huge updates in the next years when dual 8.33, WAAS and other such items become compulsory.

The average 4 seater with pre-G1000 IFR equipment and a half time engine may have a book value of maybe 50-60k and may well fetch this in the US, here they will realistically fetch half of that.

Considering that a simple upgrade from say a dual KX155 plane to a dual GNS430W setup will in most cases mean an investment in excess of 30k-40k € including all the minor/major change and STC docs, even this will exceed most realistic hull values. Upgrade an autopilot or install an EFIS will outdo €60 k combined. In comparison, an engine overhaul is relatively predictable.

That is why today you can get “IFR equipped” but no longer IFR compliant airplanes for a song. Because upgrading is so expensive, it is not worth considering.

IMHO, it would be high time to break down the extortive prices of both avionic shops and avionic manufacturers who sell technology with their quasi monopolies. Equally, EASAßs prohibitlve fees for minor/major change, which can easily outdo the value of the installed equipment, should be abolished. Or, there should be relaxed rules for privately operated airplanes to be able to use non – certified avionics even for IFR. Otherwise, the decline will continue and do so at an alarming rate.

I am currrently recovering of the shocks of receiving some offers for pretty straightforward upgrades along with the predicted down times of several weeks for what exactly?

In all honesty, I believe the trend will really be towards people who can afford 200k plus full glas airplanes while all the others will sooner or later stop or emigrate to places, where you do not need airliner avionics in a 150 kt spamcan. European GA like this has not much of a future. What is the point of an EIR/IR improvement if the upgrading of the corresponding airplanes is prohibitive?

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

It would be very interesting if you could post some of the quotes you have had, Mooney Driver.

I am not saying you are being ripped off (i.e. dishonesty) but it may be a case of a shop quoting way over the top because they are trying to factor in an extra margin to cover a job where they have to take the whole plane to bits.

Also the GNS “W” or GTN boxes come with an EASA AML STC which means there should not be a significant EASA fee.

I don’t think

The average 4 seater with pre-G1000 IFR equipment and a half time engine may have a book value of maybe 50-60k and may well fetch this in the US, here they will realistically fetch half of that.

is true unless you are talking about a very old aircraft which has possibly also been neglected. Sure I see e.g. TB20s going for 40k but they are basically shagged. Sure, they start up, fly, and land, but they will be a constant maintenance headache. Somebody I know has just bought one (against my advice) and, surprise, after throwing a ton of money at it, he has something that is sort of OK. But a good TB20GT will go for 2x to 3x that figure. And same for two Mooneys (etc) in a corresponding condition.

A dual KX155 plane was not any good for IFR in Europe for at least 20 years. You need an IFR GPS. But you don’t need two IFR GPSs; very few people have two. Also having two creates issues with the twats in EASA who insist that they will stop each other working.

8.33 can be done for a few k at most, or nothing if you throw in any Garmin IFR GPS. WAAS is not mandatory and never will be. Maybe ADS-B will be mandatory for IFR in CAS c. 2020-2022 and will need a “W” GPS to provide the position, but that’s a long way away and in any case if you are installing a GPS then put in a “W” box without question.

You don’t need EFIS – that’s pure indulgence. I don’t have it and can fly anywhere.

Last Edited by Peter at 04 Jun 22:04
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

That is why today you can get “IFR equipped” but no longer IFR compliant airplanes for a song. Because upgrading is so expensive, it is not worth considering.

If I think about our fleet of flying school aircraft, it can not be that expansive. All IFR trainers have been fitted with one Garmin GN430 or 530 (the twins) and a mode S transpnder some years ago which cost maybe 10.000 Euros for each aeroplane. For the rest, they have the original stuff installed that Piper made them with 20 or 30 years ago. IFR compliant until ADS-B comes, and that may be solved by hooking up a piece of wire between the GPS and the transponder.

EDDS - Stuttgart
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