Mooney_Driver wrote:
OT out of interest, what is the current interest rate on mortages in Norway?
It’s 2-3% in most cases.
Emir wrote:
I agree (as I agree with the rest of your post) but unlike UL we very often share infrastructure (airports and airspace) with CAT which gives EASA obvious right (or excuse if you prefer) to highly regulate GA, especially in domain of certified aircrafts.
EASA has no saying in how ATC handles their airspace on a daily basis. It’s all up to the ATC and the owner of the airfield. We can land everywhere with ULs, as long as we have transponder and radio (and know how to talk into the radio – airspace regulations). I’m an microlight instructor on an international airfield, one of the busiest in Norway with 60k movements per year. How a PPL pilot that has done all his training on a dedicated far away airfield where the ATO is the only traffic, somehow is better suited to fly in a crowded circuit with mixed traffic is beyond me.
Cost sharing is also an effective way to limit flying cost or enable to fly more. Usually, people have enough friends/family that make for a nice pool, some of which are ‘repeat customers’. And friends bring ‘friends of friends’. And who knows, maybe after some years you may have exhausted the pool but grown into an economic situation where you can just invite them 
“fixed gear SEP living outside can probably be flown 60 hours a year for €12k”
If you are flying less than 60 hours hiring or being in a syndicate makes more sense.
A 4 place SEP fixed gear/prop should only be around €100-120 per hour in a half well run syndicate.
That goes back to the attraction of ownership, and doing things on your own terms on your own schedule.
Snoopy,
yea, I can identify with what you say. Many people simply take too many things as “must have” while they moan that they work paycheck to paycheck.
Snoopy wrote:
People shop to fill emptiness.
That too.
But to make it clear: I do not advocate stinginess, actually it is something I hate. BUT there is a huge difference between spending your cash intelligently and simply shelling out without thinking.
One of the bits which makes me shake my head every time is when people queue up for a new tech gadget for days, camping out e.t.c. for what exactly? To be first? They are not anyway. Ok, it may well be an event they want to participate (like the midnight launch of a new HP novel, which is maybe different) but to camp 2 days for a new iphone which you can get for free from your service provider if you wait a bit longer?
Snoopy wrote:
Still, @medewok has it right when he says that even above average earners have a hard time justifying spending the equivalent of a family vacation everymonth for a few hours of flying.
Again it depends strongly on what you fly and how you do it. And to be honest there needs also be comparison to other hobbies. As you know I have been active in flight simulation for years with FlightXpress which you as an Austrian might know (or WCM, which was the sister mag). What I have seen there defies belief too, be it cockpit builders (and believe me a fully built cockpit would buy you a very nice tourer, they are up to 100k fully equipped) or folks which spend 10s of thousands over time for the last bees knees in computers, a flight sim PC with flight controls “state of the art” as the salesmen put it can set you back 10 k as well and then all the software. Or campers with caravans… I always had the image of those people being cheapos but heavens was I wrong seeing what one of those things cost, let alone mobile campers which cost up to150 k. Or I had one guy vocally complaining about the cost of flying (he flies PA28’s with a club) and doing so branding his last Iphone out of the window of a 120 k Tesla.
Well, I’ve given the figures I have for my plane many times and with 145 kts TAS and full LPV it is not really a motorglider… you can even today buy a used vintage Mooney or a nice PA28 for 20-30 k, which is the fraction of what a new car costs and maybe drive your trusty family car some years more? And once you have it, if you use it wisely it won’t cost you more than the above things either. But there is a time for everything in life. Timing is as essential on all this. Nest building and family rising is maybe not just the right time to start another expensive thing and apart, what is wrong with a nice mountain vaccation or spend some time near home? Many places you guys call home were my vaccationing spots in my youth, the shores of Eastbourne and the North and East sea coast are lovely in summer… our family spent their vaccations in a mountain resort in Switzerland in a rented holiday home and it still is my favorite place on earth. (Arosa for those who are interested). Why does it have to be the Maldives or Caribbean? And if it has to be the sea, then there are affordable places all around.
It’s about setting priorities and seeing that there are some things you need to work for. For me, the source of much of this whole misery is a feeling of entitlement which I can see with many people which is simply not realistic. If people would realize this, we’d have a lot less moaning and a lot more getting on with it.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
But there is a time for everything in life. Timing is as essential on all this. Nest building and family rising is maybe not just the right time to start another expensive thing
This is correct and it may have been my cardinal mistake to begin PPL training when my wife was pregnant with our son and finish it shortly after she gave birth to our daughter. Two young children, a fledgling medical career and a wife who expects more than being a stay at home mom all taken together just don’t mix well with flying as a hobby. I should have started 10 years later or so…
You should never start later when you can start earlier. I started at 15 and got my private certificate at something like 40. The things I learned at 15 and 16 helped a great deal. Life is incremental.
@medewok
I was at an airfield near Munich (!) last week. Concrete runway, nice restaurant on site, monthly cost for a turntable roundhangar place was less than 200€.
If I were in germany where GA is considerably cheaper than in Austria I’d have a plan(e) already.
Find one or two more partners and buy a simple Piper or Cessna (fixed gear), I think you will be fine financially!
MedEwok wrote:
Well yes of course my expectations do play a role here, but we’re talking about why GA is in decline and my claim is that cost is a major (not the only) factor in that. A lot of people like me will have comparable expectations and that will ultimately be the reason why they either stay away from GA or leave quickly once they figure this out…I would put it more cautiously:
And show me the plane that carries a family of four for 95€/month…of course I could do UL flying at that cost but were talking about PPL level GA here, right?
Don’t know. Isn’t it all about flying. Let’s assume the following ballpark numbers in Germany for renting:
20-30€/h sailplane in a flying club
50€/h rotten trike
60-110€/h touring motorglider (STOL aircraft with a speed ranging from C150 to PA28-160, good to learn precise flying)
100-140€/h Katana, or a recent glass fiber or metal UL
120-160€/h C152, PA 28, Aquila°
180-200€/h Glass cockpit C172°
250€/h retractable four seater°
°Up to now, you only have experience with the “upper third” of flying styles mentioned here. Maybe you could just plunge into new territory and expand your flying horizon to the lower end. Flying with the entire family is 1. a rarity (ask here), 2. dangerous, 3. really expensive if you fancy retractable PA28, TB 20, Cirrus. Maybe spare that for later in life. 4. have a look at the Moranes and older C172 or PA28. Slow, but steady.
Meanwhile you might establish/continue to have fun with your flying hobby on a more modest base.
I am not sure if GA is to blame. In your case, as has been shown, you might be able to make ends meet, but you probably have actual time constraints which are even harder to overcome than adjustments in spending priorities.
Or maybe social consensus is shifting. See, the only cars I like for their own sake are this one and that one . I don’t have use for them and I will not buy them. Shall I blame the factory for their price tag?
*BTW in Germany income is often given as either “before tax” or after tax (which normally has social insurance, health insurance… already deducted). You don’t need a special personal liability insurance as a doctor if you work at a hospital as you are covered by the employer. If you work outside a hospital (and therefore have to cover professional liability insurance by your own), this too is your personal choice.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
when McDonalds or KFC have 50% coupons at the workplace or there is an Ikea restaurant around the corner
Jesus! I think I’d rather save shower water (I am born French after all!) than subject myself to that type of fast food. That’s good for someone who has given up on health – if you are being rational, why would you ever skimp on your body?
