boscomantico wrote:
Nope. For LP, it is either English or the language used. FCL.055 refers.
No that’s not how I read FCL.055.
FCL.055 states that with ELP you may use the privileges of your license. But it does not state that with ELP you may talk in Spanish, Croatian, French or Italian. There is no such sentence in FCL.055, neither to the affirmative nor to the negative.
The reason why such an enabling argument is not defined in FCL.055 is, according to my opinion, that this was meant to be ruled under national authority. There was no intention to overrule National law regarding the language of the respective country. And National Law applies everytime wherever EASA has no rule. So there isn’t even a conflict in between national law and FCL.055.
You may fly in France with ELP, but communicating in english.
FCL.055 does not allow you to fly in France communicating in French based on ELP. This is subject to national regulations, such as the German R/T requirement.
Of course. The phrase of MD, an attempt to summarize the issue, was wrong on all accounts.
To ecerybody‘s defence, it is tricky to get right, because, while FCL.055 is about exercising the privileges of the license (and not about radio privileges) it does talk about „the language used for radio communications“…
Mooney_Driver wrote:
If you have to talk to somebody, you need RT/LP in the language you are talking
Is that the case for every country? In Germany yes, according to national law you need LP in German language to communicate in German. But is there an equivalent requirement in Finnish national law? Or French? Or Spanish?…
Can this discussion focus on the ELP (or whatever you call it) requirement for border crossing.
Within each country you can obviously use the local language, both practically and legally!
boscomantico wrote:
For LP, it is either English or the language used. FCL.055 refers.
Exactly. So whoever had got no ELP, it’s the language used and you need LP for that language. Anyone with ELP can use English.
When crossing the French border it is a requirement that you talk to ATS giving your position at the frontier. If you have ELP you can do this in English. If you have French language proficiency you can do it in French.
But if you are French you are crossing into or out of the hexagon (as mainland France is known.) you must hold an ELP.
Please note that although having a French language proficiency technically also applies to French only airports it tends to be accepted that using your best French (whatever that is) is okay. But this is off topic.
But if you are French you are crossing into or out of the hexagon (as mainland France is known.) you must hold an ELP
You are more or less saying now that Propriano to Cannes flights now need ELP as you are crossing French border, twice (actually these flights are already treated as crossing borders from international waters, hence, it needs mandatory flight plan with mandatory radio contact, however, as every pilot in France know Cannes to Propriano does not need ELP).
You really need to define what hexagon means? if border is country boundary or airspace boundary? 
Also, can you share some legal texts? (something serious like Ligifrance, PTT or ITU docs, FCL, AIP, DGAC…)
I never heard of “if you are French, you need ELP” you mean French passport holder? or DGAC PPL or LAPL holder?
I am also sure load of Suisse or Belgian pilots who talk to Genva SIV or Lille SIV in French are interested to know more about this
That goes without saying that you need filed FPL with EET and RT contact with SIV to cross French border under VFR and for talking with French to SIV, you need ELP OR FLP, nothing new under the moon…
Please note that although having a French language proficiency technically also applies to French only airports it tends to be accepted that using your best French (whatever that is) is okay.
I am not sure what “technically ok” means?
I have a very different understanding: if you have ELP (English) even with FAA PPL or Zimbabwe PPL, then you are legal to speak French in “FR only” uncontrolled airfield in south of Belgium and “FR only” uncontrolled airfield in north of France and in between you can speak French to Lille SIV as you cross the border
That is my understanding as well. You need a language proficiency in either English or the language used in radio communication, in order to use the privileges of your license. That’s what FCL055a is all about. However, it does not say anything about the R/T requirement. In Germany, you need a German R/T to speak German. In France, there is – AFAIK – no French R/T for French. Therefore, if you have an ELP, you may speak French on the radio in France. However, you may not speak German in Germany, without having a German R/T in addition to either an ELP or German LP.
Does someone need an ELP to cross borders? It might be the easiest solution, but not necessarily a requirement. Let’s say a German pilot has a German R/T, with German LP and French LP. In this case, he doesn’t need an ELP to fly to France, as long as he operates the radios in German and French.
To cross the border between Germany and Austria is even easier: German LP is enough, there is no need for an ELP, as you can speak the entire flight in German with ATC. Same for Switzerland, you can cross the border without an ELP:
1. From France, when having French LP to the Romandie and only French is used with ATC, or vice versa.
2. From Germany, when having German LP to the Deutschschweiz and only German is used with ATC, or vice versa.
3. From Italy, when having Italian LP to Ticino and only Italian is used with ATC, or vice versa.
4. And a Swiss specialty: Sending blind transmissions or contacting FIS in OCAS, does not require a language proficiency! (But it does require a valid R/T.)
Can someone explain this post which clearly states that most French pilots cannot fly abroad.
I can understand the conclusion from his research (most of the links are now dead) that most French pilots don’t have ELP and cannot do English R/T, but surely if they spoke German or Spanish they could legally fly to those two countries.
Is the often-stated understanding that you need ELP4 to cross borders not supported by any reg? I am not talking about what is practical, or undetectable.
Is that the case for every country? In Germany yes, according to national law you need LP in German language to communicate in German. But is there an equivalent requirement in Finnish national law? Or French? Or Spanish?…
Of course there is a national law in Germany, however, I am not sure how a rule in Bundesnetzagentur or LuftXX would apply to EASA licences (at FCL or sub-ICAO level) or to ICAO licence not issued by LBA? Let’s say in F-reg flown in Germany (or N-reg flown in Germany using FAA PPL and Swedish PPL). Do you wanna bet who will lose it in courts?
RT/LP stuff was never harmonised, FCL was written with some ambiguity, we can ask EASA to re-write separate rules for mutual recognitions that cover LP exams (English and local) as well as RT exams (English and local), add IFR and VFR exams layers to tests (to please ATC), harmonise these across examiners and testing centers
So we are damn sure that whoever talking French or German is well rated to do so for both LP and RT
