Mooney_Driver wrote:
It is not about what I feel but what the reality is.
Don’t confuse reality with what you personally feel is necessary.
Regarding ID checks for collecting parcels etc. I agree with Graham. That may be a minor inconvenience, but it doesn’t restrict your rights, you don’t have to get permission from some government agency to pick up a parcel, nor does the government record your parcel pick-ups. (Well, at least they’re not supposed to.)
Graham wrote:
In each of those cases it is your right, should you so choose, not to collect the parcel, not to withdraw the money, not access the workplace, or whatever.
Correct.
Graham wrote:
It’s a million miles away from a requirement to carry ID and produce it on demand (perhaps at a ‘domestic checkpoint’, whatever that is), which offers no purpose or benefit to the individual but is simply a means for government to exert control over individuals.
Currently there is no such thing, nor does anyone suggest there should be. Covid certificates, in some cases in combination with ID, are only required for things you can choose to part take or not, currently travel, access to certain venues and the likes. I have not seen, nor suggested, nor implied that there is a duty to carry them all the time. In my own experience however, it is certainly better to do so, as with the ID.
I have never yet in Switzerland (and most of Europe) been asked to produce my ID other than at the previously listed occasions, however I have several times had to answer to the challenge “may I see some form of identification” in the US and the UK.
Graham wrote:
The ID performs a function to the benefit of the individual. You can’t have a parcel collection system without some method of checking the right person is collecting it,
If you look at the individual in isolation and not “on the system” your statement is not correct. When I collect a parcel it is not at all for the benefit of me in this situation to produce my ID. The clerk could hand my parcel to me w/o any ID. It is no benefit for me that I will not get a parcel send to somebody else – to the opposite, it would actually be benefical for me individually if I could collect all parcels in the post office.
You rightfully state that “the system”, however would not work this way. Exactly my point! The need to show your ID is not in your own benefit but in the interest of “the system” (of mail delivery). It actually is a burden for you individually (and sometimes even a real one because if you forgot to bring your ID you need to get it and come back to the post offece). But you have to bear this burden because you want to benefit in “the system”.
Very same with Covid proofs of vaccination/negative test: If you just look at the individual interaction at the entrance of a pub, public building, etc. obviously the need for producing this proof has no benefit for you individually in this specific situation. The only reason why you have to do this is, because the system (we call it society) does not work if we only selfishly optimize for our own interest.
The problem in the discussion is, that in mail, bank accounts, etc. people automatically accept, that they need to stick to rules to being part of “the system” while in society there seem to be too many people believe that the burdens have to be taken by others and they should be only on the receiving end. That does not work.
Malibuflyer wrote:
When I collect a parcel it is not at all for the benefit of me in this situation to produce my ID.
It keeps the parcel from being stolen by someone who sais he is you? Same if you need to take money from the bank, e.t.c.
Malibuflyer wrote:
The problem in the discussion is, that in mail, bank accounts, etc. people automatically accept, that they need to stick to rules to being part of “the system” while in society there seem to be too many people believe that the burdens have to be taken by others and they should be only on the receiving end. That does not work.
True.
Yet ALL the acts are volontary. You can choose not to take part in banking or choose ways which does not need an ID, you can choose not to do activities which needs ID’s. Also you can choose not to parttake in any form of interaction which requires a Covid certificate.
Therefore you are right: There is not a big difference between a Covid certificate being needed for certain interactions or an ID. They both serve similar purposes.
All I can say here is former Dr. Andrew Wakefield has a lot to answer for.
Malibuflyer wrote:
If you look at the individual in isolation and not “on the system” your statement is not correct. When I collect a parcel it is not at all for the benefit of me in this situation to produce my ID. The clerk could hand my parcel to me w/o any ID. It is no benefit for me that I will not get a parcel send to somebody else – to the opposite, it would actually be benefical for me individually if I could collect all parcels in the post office.
Not at all. With no requirement to present ID, someone else could collect my parcel or withdraw my savings. The requirement to present ID to perform the transaction is clearly and demonstrably to my benefit as an individual. Without such a requirement you could not collect all the parcels in the post office, because someone else would have already done it.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Very same with Covid proofs of vaccination/negative test: If you just look at the individual interaction at the entrance of a pub, public building, etc. obviously the need for producing this proof has no benefit for you individually in this specific situation. The only reason why you have to do this is, because the system (we call it society) does not work if we only selfishly optimize for our own interest.The problem in the discussion is, that in mail, bank accounts, etc. people automatically accept, that they need to stick to rules to being part of “the system” while in society there seem to be too many people believe that the burdens have to be taken by others and they should be only on the receiving end. That does not work.
We are starting to nail down the nub of the matter. You believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that having to present evidence of Covid vaccination (and effectively also ID) to enter a pub or a restaurant is a reasonable and useful governmental/societal reaction to this endemic respiratory virus. I disagree that it’s reasonable or useful. Our respective viewpoints are quite possibly formed, at least in part, by our underlying attitude to the idea of being required to identify oneself and prove status/entitlement on demand?
alioth wrote:
All I can say here is former Dr. Andrew Wakefield has a lot to answer for.
He’s an anti-vaxxer, what’s that got to do with anything being discussed here?
I’m thoroughly pro-vaccination. As pro-vaccination as you’re likely to find anywhere.
That does not mean I support compulsory vaccination, nor de facto compulsory vaccination to be allowed to participate in society, nor government-imposed checks of vaccination status as part of daily life. Being steadfastly against these things does not make me an anti-vaxxer.
Graham wrote:
He’s an anti-vaxxer, what’s that got to do with anything being discussed here?
He has everything to do with what’s being discussed here, as if it was not for him, we probably wouldn’t have such a high level of vaccine refusal in some places (and therefore, the need for “vaccine passports” to force people into getting vaccinated so they go and eat out at a restaurant might never have cropped up). He arguably got the popular “anti-vaxxer” movement started.
Fortunately I live in the place where anti-vaxx sentiment has been seen by the general public to be the bravo-sierra that it is, so the idea of “vaccine passports” to go to the pub or eat out has never been even considered.
alioth wrote:
nd therefore, the need for “vaccine passports” to force people into getting vaccinated
I don’t believe the primary purpose of vaccine passports is to operate as a nudge to persuade people to get vaccinated, nor would e.g. France necessarily have done without them if they’d seen higher levels of vaccine uptake. Vaccine uptake in France was primarily limited by supply, in any case. The stated purpose appears to be to prevent/reduce the spread of the virus in public settings.
A ‘pass sanitaire’ -type system in the UK would never have been workable or accepted, regardless of levels of vaccine uptake.
Anti-vaxx arguments are indeed BS, but still I won’t for a second deny anyone’s absolute right to refuse a needle in their arm regardless of the motive for refusal. I shudder at the thought of governments using such extreme coercion, if indeed they are, as denying people the right to participate in everyday activities. One needs a certain level of objectivity, I think probably missing in those who seek political power, to appreciate someone’s right to think differently and not be relegated to the status of second-class citizen for doing so – even if what they think is demonstrably stupid.
Yes as @Graham writes, Covid passes are controversial in France. But I will point out that every change to the status quo has brought one group or another onto the streets in protest since not long after 1789.
On the other side there are as many or more in France who are quite laid back about Covid passes. Around here for most people, other than flashing your QR code, things are pretty much back to normal. Mask wearing where necessary again is seen as just one of those things by most. We do not fear a government power grab, whether communist or fascist, any attempt at doing so would be met by “Au armes citoyens, marhcons marchons qu’un sang impur, abreuve vos sillons”
Basic translation from Le Marseillais “to arms citizens, lets march march and water our trenches with their impure blood” and out would come M le Guillotine😆
On a personal note the only change from the norm I have or am about to.have is in a necessary visit to the UK and the mandatory 2 day test where one has to deal with government sponsored charlatans who advertise PCR tests for £20 but when you try to make an appointment the price mysteriously rises to £80, £90,£120 and in one case £200.
I can remain laid back about the Covid passes but that type of burglary, I will remember to pass such information onto anyone thinking of travelling to the UK.
As for Germany taking over or invading France. If the rhetoric Tory MPs and in The Daily Express is anything to go on, I think we should be more concerned about an invasion by the English:)
Some 77% of over 12’s have been double vacced in France. Those who are not either because they are anti vaxxers or because they cannot be bothered will increasingly find it is to them that any anger or dismissiveness will be aimed, by those who have been vacced and not towards the Government who have never made it compulsory for the general public, have made plenty of vaccine centres available with jabs free of charge.Which has, for those who have not been vaccinated, made testing freely available, issued an app which works and keeps people in touch with the statistics in your area and contains a wallet with a Covid pass and a QR code carrying only your name, the vaccines and tests you have received and when you received them. None of this is information I feel necessary to keep secret. Others of course have the right to disagree.
