dublinpilot wrote:
This thread has recently started to read to me like a divorcing couple arguing. The couple are no longer listening to one another. Well perhaps listening, but not processing what they are hearing.
Well put! I’m truly flabbergasted over this pseudo-discussion about the AZ vaccine.
Well, you don’t have to read it 
But if you do, why not post your opinion?
Fuji_Abound wrote:
To be fair to LeSving data is quite difficult to find.
I didn’t mean to be unfair to LeSving. I am open to the idea that the vaccines might cause clots, but as you point out there’s not much point in having this particular discussion without putting numbers in it. Some of my extended family seem extremely prone to blood clots (3/3 siblings in one branch have all had DVTs) so whilst I find it unlikely that the vaccine will be more dangerous than the disease in this age group, I am particularly interested in this issue.
Patient 3 from this paper is interesting. I know of another patient who had a big PE on the background of a recent mild COVID infection. so I am also trying and failing to find information on whether the incidence of people with PE/DVT after mild covid infection has risen over the last year.
Everybody seems to be being very coy with their numbers. I’m wondering whether it has anything to do with non-disclosure agreements about how many people have been vaccinated with which vaccines.
kwlf wrote:
Everybody seems to be being very coy with their numbers. I’m wondering whether it has anything to do with non-disclosure agreements about how many people have been vaccinated with which vaccines.
Really?
UK here with number vaccinated per vaccine, and statistics on side effects etc.
And here are the reports for each vaccine in detail by side effect and cause of death.
Pfizer and AZ
The number administered by type and country in the EU has been posted on this thread before.
kwlf wrote:
… But I can’t find how many jabs of each kind have been given in each, and can think of reasons why there may be discrepancies.
I had already written a python script to pick out individual countries, so I updated it to list them all. The data is cumulative.
@Peter If this is too long perhaps you could host it with a link?
file: g:dataset_2021-W10.csv filter: ALL Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 15,866,627 8,620,129 22,365 273 54.5 CN 550,000 478,853 3,936 0 87.8 COM 43,025,014 24,822,965 14,718,977 1,124 91.9 MOD 3,841,815 1,800,631 544,832 197 61.1 SPU 146,000 35,537 18,464 0 37.0 UNK 717,915 383,197 206,300 9 82.1 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 64,147,371 36,141,312 15,514,874 1,603 80.5 file: g:dataset_2021-W10.csv Country: Austria Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 369,600 212,829 40 0 57.6 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 875,745 536,845 268,208 0 91.9 MOD 122,400 34,244 8,231 0 34.7 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 1,367,745 783,918 276,479 0 77.5 Country: Belgium Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 475,200 180,656 6 0 38.0 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 1,099,605 563,103 371,573 0 85.0 MOD 158,400 40,775 23,082 0 40.3 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 1,733,205 784,534 394,661 0 68.0 Country: Bulgaria Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 247,200 174,183 26 0 70.5 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 196,560 91,993 55,690 0 75.1 MOD 24,000 14,284 2,704 0 70.8 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 467,760 280,460 58,420 0 72.4 Country: Croatia Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 168,000 100,724 224 77 60.1 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 215,280 128,029 58,653 984 87.2 MOD 57,728 21,300 4,267 53 44.4 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 3,795 998 9 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 441,008 253,848 64,142 1,123 72.4 Country: Cyprus Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 52,800 39,864 0 0 75.5 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 90,075 46,513 32,362 0 87.6 MOD 8,400 3,708 414 0 49.1 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 151,275 90,085 32,776 0 81.2 Country: Czechia Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 186,500 127,978 2 0 68.6 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 1,045,980 598,952 282,927 0 84.3 MOD 139,900 60,558 17,756 0 56.0 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 1,372,380 787,488 300,685 0 79.3 Country: Denmark Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 202,920 149,835 583 0 74.1 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 684,860 408,443 249,164 0 96.0 MOD 46,980 25,492 11,080 0 77.8 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 934,760 583,770 260,827 0 90.4 Country: Estonia Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 84,000 61,499 8 0 73.2 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 125,190 69,633 50,658 0 96.1 MOD 18,000 7,093 1,988 0 50.5 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 227,190 138,225 52,654 0 84.0 Country: Finland Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 228,000 134,637 18 0 59.1 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 635,895 431,126 85,995 0 81.3 MOD 45,600 34,081 258 0 75.3 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 909,495 599,844 86,271 0 75.4 Country: France Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 2,704,800 1,358,990 61 0 50.2 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 6,534,255 3,531,192 2,113,806 0 86.4 MOD 550,900 245,434 110,113 0 64.5 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 9,789,955 5,135,616 2,223,980 0 75.2 Country: Germany Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 3,062,400 1,679,794 217 0 54.9 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 8,759,595 4,621,916 2,819,508 0 85.0 MOD 679,200 241,405 75,195 0 46.6 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 12,501,195 6,543,115 2,894,920 0 75.5 Country: Greece Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 391,200 195,461 0 0 50.0 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 1,074,450 612,082 406,748 0 94.8 MOD 88,800 67,005 1 0 75.5 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 1,554,450 874,548 406,749 0 82.4 Country: Hungary Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 405,100 215,053 19,755 0 58.0 CN 550,000 478,853 3,936 0 87.8 COM 1,009,710 545,652 347,317 0 88.4 MOD 80,400 58,916 14,924 0 91.8 SPU 146,000 35,537 18,464 0 37.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 2,191,210 1,334,011 404,396 0 79.3 Country: Iceland Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 13,400 9,392 0 0 70.1 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 39,750 22,205 11,634 0 85.1 MOD 4,800 2,650 1,249 0 81.2 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 57,950 34,247 12,883 0 81.3 Country: Ireland Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 201,600 129,005 50 0 64.0 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 511,290 303,896 161,936 0 91.1 MOD 40,800 17,139 2,360 0 47.8 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 753,690 450,040 164,346 0 81.5 Country: Italy Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 1,512,000 1,076,911 761 196 71.3 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 4,546,620 3,354,393 1,950,626 83 116.7 MOD 315,600 219,350 45,285 142 83.9 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 6,374,220 4,650,654 1,996,672 421 104.3 Country: Latvia Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 79,200 52,139 28 0 65.9 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 38,610 19,171 16,314 0 91.9 MOD 15,600 7,346 1,757 0 58.4 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 133,410 78,656 18,099 0 72.5 Country: Liechtenstein Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 0 0 0 0 0.0 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 2,925 1,404 458 0 63.7 MOD 2,600 894 362 0 48.3 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 5,525 2,298 820 0 56.4 Country: Lithuania Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 67,717 67,713 4 0 100.0 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 257,975 165,034 92,941 0 100.0 MOD 22,907 18,470 4,437 0 100.0 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 348,599 251,217 97,382 0 100.0 Country: Luxembourg Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 26,400 8,621 4 0 32.7 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 58,230 32,635 14,068 0 80.2 MOD 9,600 2,222 1,496 0 38.7 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 94,230 43,478 15,568 0 62.7 Country: Malta Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 0 16,184 17 0 0.0 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 0 62,013 35,151 0 0.0 MOD 0 941 40 0 0.0 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 0 79,138 35,208 0 0.0 Country: Netherlands Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 795,190 303,801 34 0 38.2 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 1,953,900 1,010,520 474,280 0 76.0 MOD 142,800 80,098 18,719 0 69.2 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 386 101 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 2,891,890 1,394,805 493,134 0 65.3 Country: Norway Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 0 0 0 0 0.0 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 0 0 0 0 0.0 MOD 0 0 0 0 0.0 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 717,915 379,013 205,199 0 81.4 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 717,915 379,013 205,199 0 81.4 Country: Poland Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 1,240,800 582,358 177 0 46.9 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 3,789,630 2,113,883 1,581,967 1 97.5 MOD 310,000 212,641 21,416 0 75.5 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 5,340,430 2,908,882 1,603,560 1 84.5 Country: Portugal Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 422,400 195,025 22 0 46.2 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 962,529 584,997 331,451 56 95.2 MOD 84,000 47,880 9,561 2 68.4 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 1,468,929 827,902 341,034 58 79.6 Country: Romania Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 648,400 232,236 0 0 35.8 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 2,090,520 1,140,570 656,692 0 86.0 MOD 264,000 79,015 57,097 0 51.6 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 3,002,920 1,451,821 713,789 0 72.1 Country: Slovakia Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 196,800 127,333 151 0 64.8 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 613,080 278,734 211,083 0 79.9 MOD 75,600 23,157 5,639 0 38.1 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 885,480 429,224 216,873 0 73.0 Country: Slovenia Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 88,800 49,946 59 0 56.3 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 207,090 115,675 80,340 0 94.7 MOD 28,800 8,540 3,400 0 41.5 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 3 2 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 324,690 174,164 83,801 0 79.4 Country: Spain Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 1,587,200 940,722 0 0 59.3 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 4,524,780 2,847,579 1,618,621 0 98.7 MOD 387,600 164,687 83,143 0 63.9 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 6,499,580 3,952,988 1,701,764 0 87.0 Country: Sweden Mfr Delivered 1st Dose 2nd Dose ?? Dose %Usage --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ AZ 409,000 197,240 118 0 48.3 CN 0 0 0 0 0.0 COM 1,080,885 584,777 338,806 0 85.4 MOD 116,400 61,306 18,858 0 68.9 SPU 0 0 0 0 0.0 UNK 0 0 0 0 0.0 --- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- ------ TOT 1,606,285 843,323 357,782 0 74.8
kwlf wrote:
LeSving, do you have any source for that number of deaths due to CVST in that age group in Norway? And do you know how many doses of the AZ vaccine have been given in Norway? What are the figures for other age groups?
Pfeizer was the first vaccine we got. It was given to people according to the planned program, starting with the old and sick. Then Moderna came (I believe) and it goes together with Pfeizer. Then came AZ. AZ has stronger side effects. Don’t know exactly what is meant by that, but I assume more people get headache, and it lasts longer and is stronger (for instance). The FHI decided therefore that AZ should be given only to perfectly healthy people under 50. The ones who got AZ where therefore exclusively health personnel (+ critical personnel from a pandemic point of view), and only to those with no underlying diseases or symptoms.
The numbers have been flying around many places, but in https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/zgx7Jr/fhi-om-mistenkte-bivirkninger-vi-tror-man-er-utenfor-fare-etter-14-dager interview with the director of pandemic diseases (my translation), the numbers are clear.
130k has got the AZ vaccine, one shot. Of those, 6 persons have got ill. 5 of those with this (extremely rare and severe) version of blood cloth, and they got it between 3 and 12 days after taking the vaccine. 1 of those has died, the other 5 are severely damaged for life. The 6th person died from bleeding in the brain, but it’s unclear as of yet if this is natural or not. It’s those 5 with blood cloth that cannot be explained by natural causes (or any other causes whatsoever)
So, 130k has got the vaccine. 5 got blood cloth. 1 died, the other 4 damaged for life. The article also say that 5 out of 130k is about 1 out of 20k, and is categorized as an extremely rare event.
Now, the thing is. According to regulations, AZ is perfectly acceptable as a drug with that 1 in 20k chance of blood cloth, and 1 in 100k chance of dying (very small numbers to make a statistical case, but it’s the numbers we got, and the cause-effect is clear). However, what is not acceptable is a drug where these side effects aren’t enlisted. EMA decided to say AZ is “just fine”, which the FHI does not agree with. Not because of the numbers themselves, but mostly because the cause-effect of blood cloth cannot be explained by anything but the vaccine. FHI decided to put the drug “on hold” until things gets clearer. They may eventually clear it, but the damage is done. People don’t trust the vaccine, and not EMA particularly much either. AZ looks to be a dead fish in Norway from now on. Pfizer and Moderna, Sputnik or some of the Chinese vaccines, no problem. AZ no way
Anyone with basic math skills can work out what their chances of dying from the vaccine and from corona, and this is what “anyone” has done. Hence the “state vs nature” philosophy. Why should I take a drug that has the same chances of killing me as the disease itself? And why should the state administer such a drug to me?
There are some theories about what exactly causes this severe immune reaction that causes blood cloths. Everything evolves around the spikes on the virus.
What is most amazing to on this board, is the way people from the UK in particular, spins this into the most incredible political conspiracy theory. What the politicians in Norway would do, is to steam forward with vaccines as if there were no tomorrow. Any problems would be swept under the floor, hidden. They would make a big deal out of how necessary and important the vaccine is, and probably put themselves on display, taking all sorts of vaccines online. Good for us that we have an independent FHI capable of looking at the big picture. They have proven they are good at this. Norway has one of the lowest number of deaths per million, if not the lowest, in the entire Europe.
LeSving I think we each must make are own judgements based on accurate data. I dont think there is close to enough of a case to ban AZ, but if this is what a country wishes to do, so be it. I have had AZ and would do so a dozen times over. If a country decided not to use it then they must release the stock to those that will.
Thanks LeSving, that’s really interesting.
It still seems to me that there must be a reason why we have not seen those numbers of clots in other countries. 1/26k is not a low rate for such a serious complication. It’s also a rate of complications that you would expect to be fairly obvious to people working in bigger hospitals, even without the central collection of statistics. Especially now people are looking out for it.
When I last looked, there had been 86k confirmed COVID infections in Norway. I don’t know how many of them were in the 40-50 age group. Perhaps 10-20k? Even if that’s wrong by a factor of 2-3, the 6-7 fatalities in that age group would represent a much higher death rate than that that you would expect due to vaccination. I agree you might weigh your odds differently depending on whether you were fit and well, or whether you have a strong family history of blood clotting disorders.
