@172driver, please reread the my post 189. @AF misunderstood my „wish“ for an IAOPA contingency fund to support the court case, as one to pay the fine which was not my meaning. My suggestion of such a fund is unrelated to the subject crowdfunding project to help pay the fine.
AF wrote:
With the help of Congress and your support, we halted Customs and Border Protection’s “stop-and-search” tactics against GA planes and pilots that had crossed no borders and broken no laws.
The USA is one country. Try flying into the USA without proper arrangement (and it includes a good deal more than just customs). You will probably get shut down. Nevertheless AOPA (in the US) works by changing the politics. In Europe, AOPA is a joke IMO. We have other organisations that work very good indeed, but mostly for microlight/homebuilt/vintage.
Regarding these incidents, a wonder if there is something more to it than what has come forth so far.
apologies when this initiates another loop
But they claim the airplane was imported
Technically, when the plane was imported and assuming the 25k includes the import tax (maybe the double tax rate as the import was ‘illegal’, the same as when I get caught at airport customs with too many cigarettes….), why can’t the plane just get exported again?
I once asked Swiss customs about the procedure of temporary using a non-Swiss plane in Switzerland (by a person living in Switzerland) for a couple of days. They told me I would have to pay the import tax and get it reimbursed when exporting the plane again.
And this may not be just a German thing, I know of a similar situation where a Swiss pilot landed a non-Swiss plane in Switzerland from an Austrian airfield. (The airfield is close to Switzerland and a lot of Swiss pilots fly from there. The poor guy obviously did not checked whether the plane was taxed in Switzerland; some other planes of the club were…). Swiss customs ‘caught’ him and he had to pay the import tax (maybe plus X).
Regarding these incidents, a wonder if there is something more to it than what has come forth so far.
I wonder too. I’ve flown into Switzerland quite a few times and never got busted for import VAT. Why not?
I once asked Swiss customs about the procedure of temporary using a non-Swiss plane in Switzerland (by a person living in Switzerland) for a couple of days. They told me I would have to pay the import tax and get it reimbursed when exporting the plane again.
For two days?? Now I am totally confused.
I “get” the original case in this thread: somebody landed in CH at an airport which didn’t have Customs (we have already done to death that he did more than enough due diligence) which p1ssed off the officers and they threw the book at him.
But this I don’t get. 2 days? How does international aviation work at all?
What is the key to getting busted there? Why didn’t I get busted when I flew to Switzerland?
Is the key to the bust that a CH passport holder landed in CH in a non-CH plane?
My request to Swiss customs was related to the specialty that a Swiss person (not referring to the nationality, rather to his tax residence in CH) would import a plane out of the EU, use it here (indeed for a weekend or so) and then returning it back into the EU.
The other poor guy starting from Austria did exactly this, obviously not being aware of the tax status of the plane he used and his risk of paying import duties.
My bottom line, and the rationale behind my comparison is that in any of these cases someone (would) have imported the plane, either into the EU / Germany or into Switzerland and I’m wondering whether the plane could just got exported again to at least reducing the losses, according to the procedure of the Swiss Authorities (where the ‘same’ should apply to German authorities, it is still (sort of) EU law)?
MikeWhiskey wrote:
I once asked Swiss customs about the procedure of temporary using a non-Swiss plane in Switzerland (by a person living in Switzerland) for a couple of days. They told me I would have to pay the import tax and get it reimbursed when exporting the plane again.
I know somebody with a non-Swiss registered aeroplane that lives in Switzerland and he is also very wary of flying into Switzerland. I dont really understand this either, but his apprehension is very real and also to do with import taxes. I have also flown to Switzerland without even considering import tax on the aeroplane. Customs to/from for anything I might have carried, yes – but not the aeroplane itself.
Peter wrote:
I “get” the original case in this thread: somebody landed in CH at an airport which didn’t have Customs (we have already done to death that he did more than enough due diligence) which p1ssed off the officers and they threw the book at him.
I thought this thread was originally about a guy that went to Germany and got done there?
Regards, SD..
My request to Swiss customs was related to the specialty that a Swiss person (not referring to the nationality, rather to his tax residence in CH) would import a plane out of the EU, use it here (indeed for a weekend or so) and then returning it back into the EU.
[my bold]
How does that differ to the same person “just flying to CH”, like thousands of others must be doing? “Just flying a plane into Country X” is not an import of the plane. If it was, international aviation would be dead instantly.
The other poor guy starting from Austria did exactly this, obviously not being aware of the tax status of the plane he used and his risk of paying import duties.
Likewise; I don’t understand this. Unless there is something specific to that exact plane i.e. some past history where it was imported for a long time but import taxes were evaded, and only now the Customs people have caught up with it, under a new owner? This is a gotcha anywhere; the current owner is liable for all sorts of unpaid stuff e.g. unpaid landing fees. But that makes the argument totally different.
It must be absolutely ok for anybody, regardless of their tax status / passport / whatever, to fly a plane of any reg, into any country, and for this to not be regarded as an import. That’s unless
I thought this thread was originally about a guy that went to Germany and got done there?
Sorry; I meant flew into DE (not CH). The principle is the same though; everyone should be able to fly freely around the world, per ICAO (subject to overflight permits etc but these are more relevant in the 3rd World). The “import” angle is not supposed to arise until you park there for quite some time.
skydriller wrote:
I know somebody with a non-Swiss registered aeroplane that lives in Switzerland and he is also very wary of flying into Switzerland. I dont really understand this either, but his apprehension is very real and also to do with import taxes. I have also flown to Switzerland without even considering import tax on the aeroplane. Customs to/from for anything I might have carried, yes – but not the aeroplane itself.
The Swiss are very good at deeming an aircraft imported and levying duties if it spends too long in Switzerland even if it was earlier imported and VAT paid in Europe.
What is “too long”?
“A weekend” was mentioned above.
Any country can do this if you stay there for months. Historically the UK didn’t, and as a result many G-reg, and N-reg, planes are non VAT paid, but there was an amnesty in the 1980s, etc. And I don’t think most other countries kept track of permanently imported aircraft, either.
Back in the early 70’s and before the UK joined the EU (EEC) if we wanted to take film equipment, and a helicopter to film from, if I remember correctly we had to prepare a temporary export order in the form of a carnet.This form had to be presented to customs on leaving the UK and having the paperwork stamped. It had to be stamped again when entering and leaving the second country and again on return to the UK. Because the film stock returned in a different state from that exported it required a separate paperwork. We had to take out an insurance to the value of equipment and helicopter which would pay off any duty etc. which might be incurred due to not having the correct customs stamps and a claim that the equipment and/or helicopter had been exported/imported on a permanent basis.
It was hellishly complicated and very frustrating and time consuming. Thankfully with the EU customs arrangements all this was unnecessary within an EU country.
