Aviathor wrote:
They won’t let it barehull. Only w/instructor.
What do you think about an FTO that does not rent its aircraft to the pilots they trained ?
I specifically think of their own former students. Generally after MEP or CPL or IR training.
I know another CPL/IR FTO at LFPN that does not allow its students to hire their IFR tourer because “somebody will land someday with the gear retracted”.
To me, it sounds like an acknowledgement that the training they give is not good/thorough/consistent enough !
Why should these pilots be allowed to rent/work elsewhere if they don’t trust them themselves 
? They will carry passengers at some point.
I wouldn’t trust this kind of school.
Is it common in Europe/the US ?
I think Peter has an expression for these schools, “sausage machine” or something like that 
Maybe renting outside of training is not part of their business model. Maybe there’s enough demand from students in training? They don’t want to let the planes leave for whatever minimum daily rate they could charge & their instructors would lose business because of the lack of an aircraft to train in?
If the planes are sitting unused all day long, then I would pose the question you have, but this practice does not mean a priori that they think their students don’t know how to fly. There might be other explanations.
WhiskeyPapa wrote:
There might be other explanations.
Exactly. Did your driving school rent you a car after you got your driving license? Flight instruction and aircraft rental are two completely different businesses which unfortunately take place at the same time: weekends with good flying weather… Rent an aircraft over the weekend to a former student will get you three or four flying hours. If he does not cancel his flight Saturday morning because he can see some clouds in the distance. By then it is too late to activate instructors and students to get some flying hours out of the day. Use it for instruction and it will fly 6 to 8 hours a day and the instructor will have a chance to earn his living instead of running for the airlines.
But I do not think that there is an FTO out there who will not rent aircraft to former students for the purpose of hours building towards the next better license.
Discussed previously here..
- a student has to pay about 100€/h for CPL/IFR/Multi instruction. The instructor gets about half of that. So that’s another 50€ straight to the bottom line for the school
- an instructor on board serves as a “supervisor”, who can make sure people don’t do stupid things. It will also make sure less power is used in the engine(s) thus saving fuel and engines
- by doing instruction only, the aircraft will generally fly more hours a day than when renting it out
- the aircraft stays in the vicinity of the home base
I am not saying I like it (as a student pilot, I am out of the training machinery for 15 years now) but that is how commercial flying schools “work”.
The lesson to be learned is that license holders really shouldn’t expect to be able to rent their school’s (or any school’s) aircraft. It’s throwing your money at people who don’t want your business.
I think it is fair of them to not let people rent. Their airplanes are just too important. A taxi driver would not let anyone else rent his car when he can drive and make money in it himself.
I actually think it’s a good practice. Same esperience here. ‚My’ flight school does rent out the planes, but there’s a minimum daily rent duration of 3 hrs and the students have first right.
So, if you want to do a trip to the north sea with family, say Saturday / Sunday, you’ll be in the air ca 3 hrs net and you’ll pay 6 hrs. And the trip might not happen at all, because if there are enough students lining up, the trip gets cancelled. So, kind of prohibitive behaviour.
The school in your case does at least let the trip happen, just wants to earn a bit with it, and reduces risks. Flight schools earn their money with training, not with airplane charter, and they run a relatively high risk that if there’s a gear up or botched landing they won’t have enough airplanes for the student lessons. That’s money they won’t get back.
It was one of the reasons I had to look for an own airplane which eventually ended in the Beech. If I could have rented the school Warrior everytime, I wouldn’t be where I am now.
FTO in Croatia rented out their C172 and the guy hit some pillar with wing while taxing at Urbe airport. The result – 4 months out of service.
One advantage of doing your PPL at a club is that this cannot happen there, as all members will have access to the club planes whether they are students or fully licensed.
Speaking some some FTO owners, the problem is indeed that they don’t want the planes broken – because it happens a lot. It isn’t that the self fly hire income is small; a DA42 at say €300+ per hr is very good money. And fixing the traditional modern FTO twin i.e. the DA42 is expensive. My A&P worked on them for years and was constantly changing pricey parts. Like most things they are OK if looked after.
Yes it is a strange thing that they don’t trust their own trained pilots but that’s life Everybody who flies for real knows that the new PPL is not – in most of Europe – much good for flying from A to B… Also nowadays most FTO students are from, shall we say, nowhere near Europe (the big money is from well south/east of there) and have zero interest in GA and can’t really fly on their own. They will go to an airliner RHS where they will gradually learn to press the right buttons, under close supervision by the LHS… you hope.
I used to rent out my TB20 2002-2006 and my main potential customer was an FTO. However I insisted on dual only and this very much limited the business. Eventually I abandoned it due to various problems with people (including instructors) doing strange things…
The FTO I mentioned would like to rent out their twins and they did earlier. But AFAIK there is only 4 twin aircraft left at FTOs at EKRK and their priority #1 is CPL students training for MEPL/IR.
This is actually a problem because I can’t go and rent a twin unless I know someone who has one he/she is willing to rent out.
