chflyer wrote:
few situations where an IMC flt w/o plan or ATC contact makes any real sense
That depends on what you are going to do. There are huge areas where G (normal G) goes from 0 to 9.5-13.5k feet. You can take off IFR in IMC and fly IFR in IMC at the same course with no contact for a couple of hours or more until you reach some TMA or other RMZ. If you do it at FL90, it can be done with no avionics (no requirement for VOR, GPS or anything), or no contact with ATC. But, if you want to land, this has to be done VFR, or you can do it IFR on AFIS (RMZ) or CTR with a clearance. The clearance will be the flight plan in that case, and at the AFIS airport you need no flight plan, you only need to stay “in touch”. But then, flying IFR in IMC in a SEP in the middle of nowhere without a flight plan doesn’t make much sense in any case, unless you are running from something.
You joking?
Peter wrote:
In the UK you won’t get an ifr flight plan into the system unless it is a eurocontrol flight i.e. FL100 or something vaguely similar, in CAS.
IFR FPs filed in G are discarded and are treated like VFR ones.
The question chflyer had was about comm failure when OCAS and planning on entering controlled airspace….which could well be on a Eurocontrol flightplan where you are departing from a class G airfield. Normally you are given the frequency to contact for the clearance to enter CTA and also told to remain OCTA….
That is a very good question….AFAIK Comm failure after departure, but before receiving clearance to enter CTA does NOT give you permission to carry on per your flight plan….I would remain OCTA and return to the departure airfield….is this correct?
You joking?
Which post is that aimed at?
The question chflyer had was about comm failure when OCAS and planning on entering controlled airspace….which could well be on a Eurocontrol flightplan where you are departing from a class G airfield. Normally you are given the frequency to contact for the clearance to enter CTA and also told to remain OCTA….
That is a very good question….AFAIK Comm failure after departure, but before receiving clearance to enter CTA does NOT give you permission to carry on per your flight plan….I would remain OCTA and return to the departure airfield….is this correct?
This is one of many questions which you are never supposed to ask in the UK… but YES 
The whole “ICAO lost comms” scenario is predicated on the whole flight being in CAS or, putting it another way, on you being in possession of an IFR clearance for the whole route.
But once you get away from the LGW-JFK FL350 / B777 scenario, this is an illusion.
A UK Class G IFR flight starts with zero clearances. You are totally on your own. Lost comms or no lost comms, you have to be OCAS until cleared to enter it.
So you would have to come back and land in Class G.
You get the same issue at the arrival end. Let’s say you depart Split LDSP, where your IFR clearance will (definitely) include the words “Cleared to EGKA”. But that’s just an ATC ritual. The guy doesn’t know EGKA is in Class G. Your real IFR clearance ends with London Control handing you off to (probably) EGKA or (possibly) Farnborough Radar. (Actually FR would be a funny one because everybody knows they can see you so if you carry on on your track and they say nothing… I have had this, dropping out of FL065 CAS near DVR and being handed to FR and then, on track to EGKA, re-entering the Class A LTMA further along). Very ambiguous, catches out a LOT of non-UK pilots, and in theory forces IFR traffic to carry a moving map VFR chart.
This is an example of what happens if you are a bit slow in your descent… which you probably will want to be because nobody wants to fly all that SE UK distance at 2400ft, dodging all the non-TXP traffic:
This is the result of UK ATC funding, so you will never get a NATS employee to go public about this on any forum because they would get the boot. Even privately they almost never talk (all signed the OSA).
I still cannot get my head around it: you fly IFR in IMC in uncontrolled airspace, no ATC. Doesn’t this equal Russian roulette to not hit another pilot flying the same way?
That is a common “emotion” but in reality traffic levels in IMC are extremely low.
It would be different in scenarios where traffic is artifically concentrated, especially if accurate navigation is being used. So e.g. instrument approaches in Class G needs to be somehow controlled.
@Vladimir : in theory yes, but in practice it’s extremely unlikely due to the miminal number of aircraft in vast areas. I remember having read somewhere that there has never been a peacetime “off-airways IFR” collision in the history of UK aviation…
While it really “is” completely “unlikely” it is another question if you want to base your further existence on “likely” or “unlikely” … but I could probably get used to it.
The first time I flew as a co with a UK pilot in IMC in 2500 feet through the half country in the rain (hoping he was good pilot, but he was ;-)) … i felt pretty tense. But i guess if you grow up with that system you get used to it .. and sometimes I’d even love if that was possible at home.
FWIW: This is an excerpt from a post in a similar thread on COPA ….
( … ) my late friend Chip Allen — took off from Peachtree Dekalb in Atlanta IFR single pilot in a CJ1 (I believe)…entered clouds and was struck by a 172, flying through the class B, xponder off; talking to no one. Ended 6 lawyers lives leaving a trail of tragedy and grief — all with wives and young children. The most reckless act I recall in all my years of flying — the 172 pilot should have known better — 12k hour/ATP….
