Peter wrote:
Seriously, what is a journey log supposed to achieve?
One purpose I was told is investigation of navigational errors. Which makes the incidents and observations the most important part. Most of that stuff is recorded somewhere else already and the purpose really isn’t to force you to keep duplicate logs. You can just as well file away annotated navigation log. Some authorities might not be happy with this but EASA AFAIK accepts this. How long you should keep it is a question and it differs between countries. IIRC EASA doesn’t prescribe record keeping period for NCO, but there is one for commercial operators and it’s IMHO a sound option to use that (I think it’s 6 months).
PS: DavidS, ORO isn’t relevant to non-commercial non-complex operations. Just FYI.
mh wrote:
My Lake has one Bordbuch
My #2 plane has one too but it went out of use in 1972 or so… 
Eternal vigilance is the genuine price of liberty, regardless of where you live 
Resurrecting this thread because Part-NCO is now in force Europe-wide, and we are considering using an online system to track aircraft usage, both for our share-o-plane and at my local flying club. The share-o-plane could use a simple Excel spreadsheet stored in Dropbox. The club would use one of the popular online systems, with each pilot having their own personal account.
This means that we may not have any printed piece of paper listing recent flights onboard the aircraft. As pointed out at the start of this thread, EASA has clearly stated that an online recording system is suitable. One benefit is that everyone can see how many hours are left before next service due, and issues where aircraft are grounded/restored to service.
The UK has issued a dispensation/derogation so there is no need to carry these documents within the London or Scottish FIR, only for foreign flights.
So my question is, what would a pilot need to do to be legal for a foreign trip (and specifically pass a ramp check)? Is the journey log only for the current flight (hence could be displayed directly from SkyDemon), or would we need to print out the previous few flights on a sheet before departing? Or is it enough to be able to login and list the flights from an internet connected computer/smartphone/tablet?
Hopefully the last would be sufficient. It does seem better to me to have such documents safely stored online so that if anything does happen, the records aren’t lost.
Finally, is it legally required to sign that you’ve done an A-Check before departure, and would logging into your account to make updates be considered equivalent to “signing”.
I’m realise I’m being pendantic about this but don’t want anybody to be at the wrong end of a failed ramp check arguing the case to be allowed to proceed. These are becoming more common (esp in France) these days.
DavidC wrote:
he share-o-plane could use a simple Excel spreadsheet stored in Dropbox
Why not something like google sheets? Doesn’t need to have excel, can be updated from an iPad on the fly, and synch problems are basically non existent (and it keeps edit history etc)
We have two long threads here on the journey log. This one, and this one which I have just spent ages merging from 2 others
I can’t merge them any more because they overlap in time so the result would be nonsense
I don’t think there is a definitive answer to DavidC’s question above. The only person I know who might know is @bookworm because he works in the reg business.
But as we see e.g. here who knows what the local procedures are? France, as Spain, can and does more or less whatever it wants at the local level. What the policeman has in his briefing pack is anyone’s guess.
I carry the journey log posted by Jojo in the thread linked above, here It can be bought from that French shop but they never replied to me so I bought it from the USA and paid the substantial postage, but it is a very neat little book which unlike my old CAA one takes up very little room. IMHO none of the journey log books are ideal for what the law asks for (what does it ask for??) let alone what people want e.g. recording items for maintenance actions.
As I wrote in the other thread, I don’t understand the point of all this anyway because a criminal is not going to log the dodgy flights, so the only purpose of a log in light GA is to entrap a pilot into self-incriminating if he did something dodgy, the principle being that the more you are required to report the easier it is to prosecute. Most corporate accounting/reporting works on that principle.
I can see the purpose of the log for commercial flights, or where you (the CAA) want to entrap a pilot/operator for cabotage (which is indeed a topic which hit the forums about 10 years ago, also w.r.t. France).
I cannot see why an online journey log would be a problem, except if the Ipad goes flat, packs up, or cannot get an internet connection right there at the airport because the SIM card has run out / the contract has not been paid up because the credit card / debit card has gone past its expiry date etc etc etc Quite a lot of airfields are in the middle of nowhere. I had a great time once at LGKR in about +35C, with ATC on strike, when one method after another failed to get a connection and in the end I did it with a laptop containing a Voda 3G PAYG SIM card
Peter wrote:
I carry the journey log posted by Jojo in the thread linked above, here It can be bought from that French shop but they never replied to me so I bought it from the USA and paid the substantial postage,
Plenty of other suppliers in Europe who do answer e-mails.
DavidC wrote:
This means that we may not have any printed piece of paper listing recent flights onboard the aircraft. As pointed out at the start of this thread, EASA has clearly stated that an online recording system is suitable.
It says:
AMC1 NCO.GEN.150 Journey log
(b) The information or parts thereof may be recorded in a form other than on printed paper. Accessibility, usability and reliability should be assured.
Is the journey log only for the current flight (hence could be displayed directly from SkyDemon), or would we need to print out the previous few flights on a sheet before departing?
GM1 NCO.GEN.135(a)(8) Documents, manuals and information to be carried
JOURNEY LOG OR EQUIVALENT
’Journey log or equivalent’ means that the required information may be recorded in documentation other than a log book, such as the operational flight plan or the aircraft technical log
The OFP records data for a single flight, so I think it would be hard to argue that multiple flights are required.
Or is it enough to be able to login and list the flights from an internet connected computer/smartphone/tablet?
It doesn’t actually say “online”, and I had always assumed that there would be some local storage medium. All the arguments you put for cloud storage are good ones, of course. How reliable is your internet access from the apron?
Finally, is it legally required to sign that you’ve done an A-Check before departure, and would logging into your account to make updates be considered equivalent to “signing”.
The signature in the journey log is not the signature for the A-check. I cannot see a requirement for an A-Check signature because the requirement for a tech log is only for CAT. The contents of the journey log (including the signature of the pilot-in-command) are specified in AMC, which is not hard law. The preface to the list uses the phrase “where applicable”. So on balance I think it would be hard to argue that a physical signature is a requirement.
I’m realise I’m being pendantic about this but don’t want anybody to be at the wrong end of a failed ramp check arguing the case to be allowed to proceed. These are becoming more common (esp in France) these days.
You’re probably getting the idea by now that EU law is more more open to interpretation than what you may be used to. However, I’d be disappointed if NAAs took a narrow, compliance-based approach to such issues — it goes against the spirit of rulemaking policy at EASA, which emphasises performance not compliance.
