Again: why did the seller not tell you? Why do you let him get away with that?
to be fair to the seller/broker, he’s on his holidays, and I’ve not asked him about the accident as yet.
If I ask, and he denies all knowledge, then either he hasn’t done his due diligence, or he has, and is being untruthful. If he volunteers the information once I’ve asked, then yes that does beg the question why not tell me up front.
thinking about it, I’m not even sure if he is the seller, or a broker for the seller- something else i need to bottom out.
Id prefer him to be naive, than mendacious.
I am not letting him get away with it, Id rather look him in the eye, when i ask the question, as I’ll get a better idea of whats going on, than on the phone/via email.
I’ve only just started looking at the aircraft this last week, so things are moving quickly – I guess i was trying to get a feel for what you felt, as experienced aircraft owners, regarding the extent/age of the damage.
I’m tempted to offer him a free aviation medical, and ask the question just as I’m checking his prostate- always works with my tax inspector!!! (TFIC)
Andrew
I think Adam makes a very good point about hidden damage. There is no way to NDT a wing spar. You can’t get sufficient access to it. You would have to de-skin it. Conventional metal planes tend to show spar overloads via wrinkled skin, but in this case it may have been repaired a long time ago. Composite or wooden ones can hide damage.
why did the seller not tell you? Why do you let him get away with that?
I agree 100% in that one should not have anything to do with somebody who is dishonest, but in this case one can’t be 100% sure the seller is dishonest. He might just be stupid. Stupid to buy it (post-1996; most likely just before the import to Europe and transfer to SAC for the trust) without a prebuy, stupid to never demand the logbooks, stupid to never do an FAA records check… it’s all been done before. Also, people who are not stupid do love to “believe” and they fall in love with a plane and just set aside the sensible stuff. Parallels in normal life, too…
A lot of buyers never do a prebuy check, especially if the seller is charismatic and spins a good yarn.
I think there is sufficient dodgy stuff here that I would walk away from this one.
Also, what about import VAT? Has this plane got a Cert of Free Circulation, or a C88? Some notes here
I bought a Cessna from this company a while ago. They have a pretty relaxed attitude – when I arrive to look at it the chap quite literally tossed me the keys and said “Go and fly it, see if you like it”. He knew less about the history of the aeroplane than I did at that point, as I’d found the previous owner, the previous maintenance company, etc. and spoken to them about it. I didn’t get a pre-buy inspection because of those conversations.
Once I had bought it I took it away before the money had hit his bank account. In my experience they price the stock quite keenly so it doesn’t stay around for too long, but by the same token I doubt very much you’ll get a hefty reduction in price on the basis of something you uncover about its history, because he knows that the next buyer who comes along, attracted to it for the same reasons, won’t be so diligent.
When I sold it, a couple of people did get pre-buy inspections done and they didn’t uncover anything about the history of the aircraft and I had to tell the buyers what I’d uncovered. So I think pre-buy inspections vary quite a bit in quality. Use someone you trust, or someone that someone you trust trusts I guess!
Afsag, I would bet a pound to a penny that the broker (if he is the current owner; he did/does also sell aircraft for other people) will not know a great deal about the history and it just selling it “as seen”. I also doubt that he would buy something bad and sell it on as good to make a bit of extra cash – it’s a well established business and doing that would be suicide. From what I’ve seen, he is a ready cash buyer of pretty standard, somewhat scruffy aircraft with a decent reputation, does nothing to them (apart from sometimes getting an annual done) and sells them on for 10-20% more than he paid.
I have just now done my FAA BFR and spoke to the guy (he is an A&P/IA and ATP also; we do all maintenance on mine, together) about this sort of thing.
He charges for 2 days’ work. 1 day is spent checking the paperwork ties up – essential on a certified plane which can so easily be rendered worthless by incomplete or crooked paperwork (e.g. a major AD not done). 1 day is spent on inspecting it. On a homebuilt, the 1st day may be shorter, but not if inspecting for a regime where e.g. AD compliance is not optional or where work was done by a person not having the privileges to do it.
As an aside, a good tactic when buying a plane (which does not have any major questions on it) is to get the seller to pay for the Annual and get the Annual done by your firm (not by a mate of the seller). That way, if stuff is discovered, he pays for it, and you get 12 months of airworthiness. It’s a suggestion which is difficult for the seller to refuse, unless he is hiding something, or unless the Annual is nowhere near due.
A similar tactic, lower down the scale, is for you (the buyer) to offer to do a 50hr service on it in addition to the prebuy inspection – this is basically an engine service, and you take away the oil filter and the oil for analysis. Of course this is worth doing only if the seller has not just changed the oil….. the oil needs to have at least 10 hours on it. Also, people who for some reason don’t want to do a proper prebuy are advised to do this because it’s dirt cheap (under £100) and you get a much better grip on the state of the engine. And as above the seller can’t refuse this offer unless he is hiding something. If you walk away, he has just got a free service! What is there to not like?
I have 2 KX165A’s in stock and a King Mode S transponder ( that would sort the 8.33 & transponder issue ) at a moderate price !
Thanks for the advice so far, it really is considered and useful.
Thanks for this site- I post elsewhere, but would not expect the level of help and genuinely good advice there.
I think David has described the situation brilliantly, and i agree with his assessment of the company.
Aviation is a small world isn’t it?
I was sitting at Wellesbourne yesterday and got talking to a pilot who’d been based there for 30 years, he remembers when the plane was based here last time.
He had some extremely interesting memories of an engine failure in Jersey, and significant complications with the provenance of the replacement engine. looking at the logs, I think his memory is good- as after a long period of maintenance at Coventry (5 mins flying time from Wellesbourne) there are several entries from a shop in jersey.
i’m going to have a very good chat with he seller/broker in the next couple of days and put these issues to him. I suspect, as David says, it might mean the airplane waits for its next owner a little longer.
looking at the ad it looks to be sold?? what is the latest?
The other thing is, if it has an accident history, no matter how well repaired, then resale one day will be V E R Y difficult indeed. In this market where people literally walk away due to a broken instrument or other very banal things, they simply have too much choice NOT to buy an airplane with a known damage record. I have heard people in maintenance tell me that for this reason, repairing a plane which has had such a damage is often not economical, not because the repair can’t be done but because it becomes basically unsellable.
Having heard what you heard now, I’d honestly walk away. There are thousands of planes out there without this kind of handicap.
