Peter wrote:
You don’t log it.
My FAA Log Book (Sportys #8120A) has a column headed: “Instrument Approaches” – it makes no differentiation between those done in IMC or VMC.
Whenever I do an Approach, I enter it in to this column; but DON’T count it towards the 6/6 requirement unless (as mentioned above) part of the procedure between the FAF & MDA is non-VMC.
I spent over an hour on the phone discussing the wording of the Info with the author. He made it clear that all the requirements had to be met in order to log an instrument approach. Simply being in IMC which could also be visual conditions for the entire approach was not sufficient. One of the conditions is:
4. When conducted in an aircraft, the flight must be conducted under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions [§ 61.51(g)(1)].
Actual instrument conditions are conditions which require the use of the flight instruments to maintain control of the aircraft. The opposite of actual instrument conditions are visual conditions which allow control of the aircraft to be maintained using outside visual references.
So if you are by yourself and can maintain control of the aircraft via using outside visual references without needing to refer to the flight instruments as might be the case when flying in IMC when VFR visibility or cloud separation can’t be maintained even though one is in the clear the entire time, then this approach can’t be logged because no portion of the approach was conducted under actual instrument conditions. To log the approach, some portion of the approach must have been conducted under actual instrument conditions and thus also required the logging of actual instrument conditions.
On the phone discussion, I took issue with his loose usage of the term IMC in the following paragraph of the Info:
The FAA does not require the ceiling to be at MDA or DA/DH during a flight in IMC. When an aircraft is flying an IAP in IMC, two outcomes are possible:
1. The aircraft will transition from IMC to visual meteorological conditions that allow a landing in accordance with § 91.175; or
2. The aircraft will remain in IMC and execute a missed approach at the missed approach point (MAP) or DA/DH.
In either case, a pilot may log the IAP.
IMC is an abbreviation for IFR Meteorological Conditions which is defined in FAR 1.1:
IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules.
VMC is an abbreviation for VFR Meteorological Conditions which is defined in detail in 91.155 and 91.156.
A more precise use of the terminology in the quoted paragraph IMHO would be, instead of “IMC”, it should read as “under Actual Instrument Conditions”. I am OK with the use of “visual meteorological conditions” because it qualifies them to those “that allow a landing in accordance with § 91.175”.
So, bottom line, I would log any approach which conducted under IFR and in IMC that at least a portion of the approach after becoming established on the procedure was conducted in actual instrument conditions. Interestingly, as a CFII, I could count an approach towards my own IFR currency that is conducted by a student i was giving dual to who flew an approach under actual instrument conditions and I can log the time as PIC and the actual instrument conditions.
Peter_G wrote:
I have always seen the clarification in InFO 15012 (linked above) to clearly mean that between the FAF and the MDA/DA/DH once must experience non-VMC i.e. IMC at some stage to log the IAP for currency.There is an interesting twist when one uses foggles and have a Safety Pilot since FAR 91.109 (c) 1(i) refers to him/her possessing a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft flown. In the UK does this mean an IR or would an IR(R) suffice in certain airspaces?
See my post on IMC.
Regarding the safety pilot, all that is required is a the pilot hold a pilot certificate with the category and class rating, example single engine land. There is no need for the safety pilot to have any special endorsements such as complex, tail wheel, or high performance or any type of instrument rating. The safety pilot must have a current medical, but they themselves do not need to be current to carry passengers or night current if the flight is accomplished at night as long as they are not acting as the PIC.
Graham wrote:
Are you supposed to record them in any way? Or do you just get to the end of the time period and say to yourself “I did them”.
61.57 (c) says you must log them and 61.51 says to log actual instrument time or the name of the Safety pilot. I log the airport, the procedure, the number of holds and the safety pilot if needed. So KUZA ILS Rwy 2, 1 hold, Joe Blow is safety pilot is an example..
I did my 6/6 last Sunday. KLKR RNAV 6, RNAV 24 with hold, RNAV 6, RNAV 24 with hold; KUZA ILS Y Rwy 2 hold, LOC Y Rwy 2, hold with Circle to land.
Thank you NCYankee for another superb contribution.
They were probably moved; I haven’t deleted anything for months, other than admin stuff.
We have two similar threads running: one on the FAA 6/6 versus EASA annual test, and this one which is older and narrower in scope.
Sometimes, it isn’t 100% clear where to put posts, when a post mixes up two topics.
172driver wrote:
Are you referring to the circular I posted earlier?
Yes. I reposted the original Info here.
