From here
Graham wrote:
I’m not saying I’d never utilise the undershoot, if I felt I could do so safely, to give myself extra margin at a runway that was tight whilst being within limits. But I wouldn’t post it on YouTube.
I’ve seen that happen quite a lot, not in Saanen per se, but elsewhere, including rather large airliners. In most cases some folks start piping up shouting foul at the pilots if it’s in the public domain, however I’ve never heard of any CAA going after someone if there are no other circumstances such as having flown in very low to start with. The approach into Saanen is fairly steep but on this approach he did not appear to be low at all, just ended up a bit early with the flare.
Putting up stuff on youtube, quite often it may be a good idea to run it by some trusted folks first to see if there is nothing you can get shot down over. Yet there is plenty of folks who will just be looking on how to put dirt onto fellow humans, so you need to expect a bit of flack for every video you upload. So far, I’ve refrained from doing so for that very reason, particularly after I got reported after a picture taken on final for “not paying sufficient attention to piloting the airplane” proof of which was that a pic was taken on final (at about 3 Miles from the runway).
Umm, touchdown short of the line?
I have done it zillions of times, what is the issue?
Is landing before displaced threshold illegal? there are no cross markings? just a side note, in NCO, there is no requirement to cross thresholds at 50ft, no requirement to use reduced LDA, no need to fly 3deg and you can pass threshold at 0ft and use full runway length…
I can plan on full runway length from AIP (including displaced threshold) and use raw ground roll figure from POH (with no crossing height or addon), I am aware it’s not sensible or wise even when you know what you are doing, I don’t recall it was illegal? If anyone has a legal reference in NCO please tech us 
I am only aware that one should not land on “X”
What’s next: taxi on gass is “runway excursion”? and landing on strips is “off airport crash”? and power off glide approach is “unstable approach”?
@Ibra good question.
I suppose I am guilty of assuming “you just can’t do it” because of the apparently-obvious purpose of the markings and the way things were explained in training. The published LDA, measured from the displaced threshold, presumably has some purpose. I’m not sure whether the area before the displaced threshold (not being part of the landing distance available, and therefore by inference not available for landing) is, under regulation, available for landing or not.
Indeed, if landing before is perfectly legitimate then I retract the comment, but I’m not sure your comparisons hold water. There’s certainly no requirement to cross thresholds at 50’, fly 3 degrees, etc. (you can glide in and land on ‘brick one’ if you like) but those are very different questions, in their very nature, to whether you’re allowed to land on a part of the tarmac that isn’t published as being available for landing. Strips of course are a total red herring, because when an airfield isn’t licenced all bets are off and any markings are just a guide with no formal meaning.
You shouldn’t land on “X”, but you also shouldn’t land on the apron and that doesn’t have an X on it. Where does that logic chain end?
I think commercial operations and commercial training are legally required in their approved mannuals to apply safety factors (1.4×?) on 50ft LDR from aircarft POH versus runway LDA from AIP after displaced threshold…I am not aware of similar requirements for private operations?
I flew last weekend with an instructor who told me flying PAPI is mandatory on instrument runways and landing off centerline on grass airfields is illegal…lot of flying wisdom but zero understanding of regulations on private flying
Having said that, one can elect to apply CAT regulations to their flying if they appreciate more saefty, especially in twins but others can chose to fly legally under NCO
The PAPI is not mandatory unless it says so in the charts. Besides which a PAPI at a large airport is usually set up for larger aircraft. Eg the pilots eye view is higher.
There often is no centre line on grass one usually has to judge the centre of the runway.
However, it is often prudent to land more left or more right especially following wet weather or in crosswinds in a taildragger.
Did that instructor have a legal text to back up his argument?
Are we really talking a displaced threshold or a touch down zone after the threshold.
If its the 2nd its no problem providing you have landed on the runway ie on or after the threshold markings. If its the first it could be a touch dodgy unless one knows the reason for the displaced threshold and landing short does not present a safety issue. There is no reason why you shouldn’t land on the threshold marks. I can find no regulation that says you.have to pass it at 50ft.
No, we’re talking about landing before the displaced threshold. Before the solid white line that crosses the tarmac, in the area where the forward-pointing arrows are.
Nothing about 50’ over the threshold. Nothing about touchdown zones. Nothing about PAPIs. Nothing about centre lines. These are just things that @Ibra has introduced into the conversation as comparisons to try and place the issue of landing before the displaced threshold into the same ‘quite obviously not legally required’ category as these things.
Ibra wrote:
I flew last weekend with an instructor who told me flying PAPI is mandatory on instrument runways and landing off centerline on grass airfields is illegal…lot of flying wisdom but zero understanding of regulations on private flying
There is a lot of BS passed around in flying, and instructors (especially in club settings) are not immune. For some inexplicable reason, lots of people have terrible trouble distinguishing between something they don’t think is a good idea and something which is unlawful.
I’m asking the question genuinely here, because I didn’t think landing before the displaced threshold was permitted. I could be wrong.
Using full runway length and landing dead on thresholds (or even before or next to it) is legal for private flying
I have checked these legalities of this when operating someone else aircraft in 600m pavement with no obstacles around, it’s all legal under NCO AFAIK…I did not fly it that often for safety reasons, it’s unforgiving for mistakes
Graham,
you should be right. It is not permitted, as it is not part of the runway for that landing direction.
This is a pet-peeve of many German Luftaufsicht officers. When you do this, you will very likely get told off on the radio, or afterwards. In extreme cases, you might get reported. This is because in Germany, landing outside of licensed runways is not permitted. So, in an extreme interpretation, doing so is like landing in a field somewhere (Aussenlandung). So the truth might be that this is country-specific.
However, it is not always handled so strictly in Germany. There is one infamous airfield in the middle of Germany. Half of the physical runway is displaced threshold (even though the obstacles on short final are not that bad). To make it worse, shortly after the displaced threshold, the runway start sloping down. So, whoever does it the correct way and lands past the displaced threshold must brake rather heavily after touchdown. Most local pilots at that airfield land way before the displaced threshold to avoid that. The Flugleiter/BfL closes an eye. Don‘t know if he also does this for visiting pilots…
‘Next to it’? On the grass next to the runway? At a licensed airfield?
You can land dead on the displaced threshold. I content that you (probably) can’t land before it.
In what way have you ‘checked the legalities’?
The Airlaw part of your theory will say landing before the threshold is illegal (at least mine did).
Often you have a displaced threshold to ‘guarantee’ obstacle clearance, therefore it is not a good idea to regularly land before the threshold.
But I wouldn’t judge someone if they safely landed before the threshold, especially when landing on a short runway with a ‘heavier’ plane. In the end it is their risk they are taking.
