IFT (instrument flight time) & IFR

Whether you are logging block time or flight time only as IFR shouldn’t really be an ATO vs CBIR issue. IFR time (unlike IF time) is the operational condition, if you complete the whole flight IFR then the whole flight, which is block time here, is IFR. If you depart somewhere VFR and then pick up an IFR clearance then obviously there will be a split. I’m not sure I can think of a scenario were only the airborne time (in full) would be IFR.

Obviously this is very different from IF time, which is very specifically only when flying by sole reference to instruments. You could fly IFR for many hours and never log a single minute of IF time.

pilotrobbie wrote:

Also, did anyone note, with the CBIR you log IFR only for the Flight Time, where on the ATO (10hrs) they want Blocks on to Blocks off. At least those ATO hours fly by….

I have never seen anything in the regulations that would support that interpretation of flight time logging.

The PIC should log flight time according to the law, ATO/IRI may wish flight time logged according to finances or ignorance, I hope it’s the former ;)

pilotrobbie wrote:

Also, did anyone note, with the CBIR you log IFR only for the Flight Time, where on the ATO (10hrs) they want Blocks on to Blocks off. At least those ATO hours fly by….

Not exactly.

What the regulation (or at least the UK CAA) require as minimum hours on a CB-IR training course is: instrument time under instruction, for example:

A multi-engine competency-based modular IR course shall include at least 45
hours instrument time under instruction

This does not refer to IFR time. An IFR flight is (or can be, leaving Z/Y flights aside) IFR from blocks off to blocks on. IFR time is irrelevant in the context of a CBIR training course. You can log it if you wish (I would log it), but it’s not the time the authority will be asking for as part of the application.
At my ATO, the instructor said the UK CAA wouldn’t accept block time as instrument time under instruction because they’d argue that the time on the ground taxiing can’t possibly be instrument time under instruction, even though it definitely is IFR time and it also is dual time under instruction. The argument is it’s not “instrument time” as on the ground you’re not flying by sole reference to the aircraft’s instruments. I don’t know if that phrase is missing the word “flight”, as in, instrument flight time under instruction, but the end result was that we had to subtract 10 minutes to the block time of each flight to get the instrument time under instruction time. Quite annoying because those extra 10 min over the course of the training add up to 2 hours or so, which cost 1200 GBP in a DA42. Naturally they make you pay for the block time, of course…

I guess this is one of many things that could be argued in a court if somebody bothered…

From the definitions:

‘Instrument time’ means instrument flight time or instrument ground time

‘Instrument flight time’ means the time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments.

‘Instrument ground time’ means the time during which a pilot is receiving instruction in simulated instrument flight, in flight simulation training devices (FSTD)

Time in the aircraft on the ground is clearly not ‘instrument time’ because it is not ‘controlling an aircraft in flight’, let alone by sole reference to instruments.

Alpha_Floor wrote:

At my ATO, the instructor said the UK CAA wouldn’t accept block time as instrument time under instruction because they’d argue that the time on the ground taxiing can’t possibly be instrument time under instruction, even though it definitely is IFR time and it also is dual time under instruction

So it’s 45h BSRFI time to get ME-IR?

I am sure your instructor has never flown in an FNPT2? or used AP or FD to control an aircraft under IFR? maybe he is one of those “pure blood IFR flyers” that are hanging around in UK IRI & IRE scene, they have strong opinions on IFT/IFR time logging but they will rarely fly in IMC OCAS as they need to lookout outside, so you are most likely flying VMC under the hood with them

I think ATO 10h needs to to be with an IRI

The remaining 15h can be with an IMCr instructor (FI+IMCr or IRI) or freelance IRI who are qualified to provide instrument instruction (some of them go in really hardcore IMC that those hours should really count ×4 ) but it can’t be the 180 degres turns under the hood and VOR tacking done with an FI+PPL