Airborne_Again wrote:
I’m usually instructed to start with 7000 until the tower obtaines my discrete code.
Yes, VFR you do get discreet codes and for uncontrolled IFR departure one would set 7000 before picking your clearance/route in the air
I was referring to being IFR with 7000 in the air mostly OCAS but sometimes even with IFR clearance to transit CAS (again this is probably UK specific)
Airborne_Again wrote:
I assume this question is not intended to be taken literally. So what are you asking?
Unless you have an exact definition of an IFR clearance definition, it will be tricky to debate what that means?
My pointer from ATC perspective is VFR flight can’t have an IFR clearance, you get only VFR clearances subject to “remain VMC” (or in sight of surface if applicable), you can still get anything on top terrain/vectors/traffic/separation as far as practical but nothing guaranteed…It is also tough to deny an IFR clearance on the basis of “wanting remaining VMC” (I tried this it did not fly high with ATC but I got it 
)
I think the practical distinction between IFR clearance and VFR clearance, the former has to do with the big scheme of things (traffic flow management and separation) the latter has to do with remaining VMC, this is from ATC operational perspective, of course I can write pages on conceptual differences…
In few cases, I find this to get ugly sometimes even for an IR holder when departing VFR in CAS and getting stuck while waiting to get IFR in the air or following a VFR clearance into IMC and being denied IFR services (or at least a de-confliction service)
Ah, ok, I thought we are discussing the question ’why could Ibbotson post rusty on ILS if not on IR flight / no IR license."
Where I did my IR training, Northrine-Westphalia, there’s a dedicated training area (Barmen training area) which is ‘virtually’ defined by radials and distances from specified VORs such as BAM. The area has been worked out with/by ATC, and when you file an IR training flight plan they will try to route traffic around it. It is being used for basic skill training, turns, climbs, descents, as well as initial exercises such as intercepting radials, flying QDRs, QDMs, getting wind correction right and so on, under simulated (if sunny) or true (if cloudy) IMC conditions. Of course this, as all the other stuff, such as holdings, approaches, missed approaches, etc., is being trained in class Echo airspace where there’s VFR traffic and the IRI is both looking out and looking at me.
When I was writing above about single pilot practice approaches in VMC using an ILS or else, I meant the part of the approach which is inside the control zone, so, after crossing the border from airspace class Echo or Golf visible on the VFR chart. Perhaps that’s where the confusion comes from, I should have been more specific. What I mean is not flying the whole approach from the IF, which you can do, but only the last part starting i.e. 1 or 2 miles before the FAF and then flying the GS down.
In VMC and under VFR, however, I can request vectors or request a standard approach – and to do that, I totally agree that because I will be in airspace E or G, I need to look out or have someone to look out – and (where I learned) the proper way to do that (here in NRW) is to request a ‘practice approach’ or ‘vectors’, and then either FIS coordinates it, or you call radar and request it from them, or if close enough to the airport you can call their tower.
In either way, they usually give you the clearance in a way that they add the sentence ‘remain VMC at all times’ to establish you are VFR and therefore subject to VFR cloud separation. So, you then have a clearance to follow their vectoring, or the clearance to fly a standard ILS approach, but you need to make sure you are free of traffic as long as you are outside the control zone of said airport.
I hope it’s become clearer now. I guess we mean the same thing.
For realistic and full training /practicing a full fledged approach I agree with both of you – you definitely need to either have an IR rating yourself and you need another pilot on the RHS to look out.
Ibra wrote:
Unless you have an exact definition of an IFR clearance definition, it will be tricky to debate what that means?
An IFR clearance is one that allows you to fly according to IFR. If got “Cleared for ILS approach”, I would take that to imply that I am now flying IFR.
Clearly this is off topic, but while we’re doing it….
I dont have all the answers but when flying with a friend I asked for a SVFR clearance for an essential (really really helpful large short cut) crossing of class A.
When I was denied my friend piped-up on the radio ans said " we can accept an IFR clearance if that’s possible.
We were immediately cleared, given a level and heading and became a ‘Controlled flight’ for the entire crossing.
A VFR clearance would have been “remain clear of cloud, and not above X 0000 feet please report at.”
Another point I’d like to mention is that it has been typed several times, along the lines of, that ATC don’t enquire/mind/care what you are doing.
This does not mean that you are legal or complying with the regulations. That is not ATC’s role. You may not receive enquiries as they will assume you have the licence/rating/competent safety pilot or instructor.
Timothy wrote:
I imagine that Cobalt is not pulling your leg
correct, I wasn’t.
but looking at this as an experienced IFR instructor in the UK
Thanks for the upgrade… but while I have an IR (which I got and used well before instructing), I only ever instructed VFR.
EuroFlyer wrote:
We are talking about flying down the GS of an ILS … which as you know takes place in a control zone.
This is a fair point – if indeed in Class D, as in most countries, this is safer than not looking out in a Class G procedure. And while technically you are responsible for your own separation from VFR flights while in VMC in that airspace even if under IFR, the risk is much lower than in Class G because ATC will not deliberately put you in conflict with other known traffic.
I would just like to add that of the two really close encounters I ever had (of the “I could see the other Pilot’s surprised expression as he whizzed past me” kind) was in Class D airspace…in Germany.
SVFR clearance for an essential (really really helpful large short cut) crossing of class A
I don’t know how long ago this was, but SVFR has not been available in Class A for some years, as the definition of Class A (can’t be used for Zones) and SVFR (only available in Zones) are mutually exclusive.
Might that be why you didn’t get an SVFR clearance?
CAP393 P136 You will get an IFR airways crossing (usually), but with a couple of exceptions with respect to class D airways I suspect it is an IR.
Hi Timothy, I’m starting to doubt my memory but incase you can remember, it was the entiire Channel islands zone when heading to Brittany.
Didnt the CI zone use to be class A, so IFR only, or SVFR, if VMC, but now class D, so IRR and IR valid in IMC, non instrument in VMC. What happened to the base of Q41 being reclassified?
In old days I guess an SVFR transit on legacy UK PPL or NPPL would required more than 10km visbility, most ATC will not give one if they have any doubt on weather unless you state you have an IMC (this is a bit irrelevant now as Timothy mentioned, there is no way you can acess Class A as VFR after big airports D zones reclassification in the UK)
My impression in the UK, you are IFR is you fly from/to/in class A airspace other than that in class D/G aispace you get additional confusion that comes from pilot/atc state of minds
