BeechBaby wrote:
Fuji, I for a long time, have believed that Scotland, could be a different place, if full, independent control, was in our hands. I do not get the English perspective of we would make a mess of it. So what? The deeper argument is that England could not go it alone. It requires our tax revenue. We are different countries, with our legal system, schools system, culture, self belief, and an aching desire to rewrite the wrongs of ancient history. Sorry, could not resist that last bit.
Of course you wouldnt make a mess of it any more or any less than any developed, intelligent democracy makes a mess of running its affairs. I dont think serious commentors really believe that.
Equally there cant surely be a serious point in whether or not England could go it alone. It would go it alone if it had to, and, in consequence it might or might not be better off, in the same way Scotland might or might not be better off. I suspect as a forum, and judging by this thread, we cant even agree on what being better off means. Your definition is almost certainly different than mine. Most people would probably think it means more wealthy, Peter might say a better quality of life, and you might argue a fairer society.
I would take a different point of view. In the differences we find strength. We are a union, and as with any union each member goes it own way to some degree, but also they cooperate in other ways. The diversity means different ideas are tried, and, hopefully, the best ideas prove themselves and are adopted by both, or it becomes recognised that each member has different needs and therefore different rules. After all, in a way local authorities already each plot their own path, while also staying on the common map set by central Government.
If Scotland ultimately felt that the Union had failed because its voice was no longer heard then it would have grounds for leaving the Union, but you can be pro Scottish, infact it is good you are, but that isnt incompatible with being pro Union. Embrace both, fight your corner on those things Scotland should be passionate about, and fight our corner on those things that are important to this island of ours. After all I think on balance we have more in common than are our differences.
The one bit about Brexit which shows that Britain did have a real point in choosing to leave is the reaction of the EU powerfolks to it.
Rather than reflecting on what THEY have done WRONG in the past which made them loose one of their core members, they saw the fault only with the Brits and more or less are set to “punish” the British for their decision “pour encourager les autres”. Well, how about a bit of self criticism? How about figuring out what lead to this whole debate and the eventual decision to take the reasons away for others to decide the same? But no, the EU is set to make an example out of Britain to make it brutally clear to the remaining states that who dares defy them will pay a gruesome price.
And maybe exactly that attitude is what makes all those movements in many countries draw support. And what was the reason many in Britain became so uneasy with the Brussels folks.
What I personally regarded as rather regrettable is that in large parts the debate during the campaing ended up focussing on inter EU immigration as the foremost problem, which I think it is the reason that the Brussels folks dismiss the whole thing as a racist decision. Had the campaign been fought more balanced, it would not have been so easy for Junker and his merry men to simply ignore the underlying reasons the debate did start in the first place. The result might also have been less divisive. Not many people want to be associated with racism, but a lot more would be able to agree that it was a vote for freedom vs suppression. Unfortunately this did not at all work out due to the way the campaign was fought.
In the wake of this election now, it will be interesting to see what happens.
Rather than reflecting on what THEY have done WRONG in the past which made them loose one of their core members, they saw the fault only with the Brits and more or less are set to “punish” the British for their decision “pour encourager les autres”. Well, how about a bit of self criticism? How about figuring out what lead to this whole debate and the eventual decision to take the reasons away for others to decide the same? But no, the EU is set to make an example out of Britain to make it brutally clear to the remaining states that who dares defy them will pay a gruesome price.
Absolutely 100% spot on, and that is one of the reasons why the simplistic “Brexit voters are thick, stupid, ignorant, bigoted, xenophobic, poor and uneducated” statements which dominate social media, dominate most national TV news production across all of Europe including the UK, and which keep coming into my inbox from pilots in mainland Europe miss the point by such a margin. I don’t mind if these people miss the point (each to their own) but it doesn’t help them understand how this came about.
My family came to the UK from Czechoslovakia in 1969 and I believe in the UK and I am not going to bet against it. I believe it will do just fine in the long run.
They call us those island monkeys.
Never has there been the slightest indication that the EU has a wish for retaliation against the UK. All the EU did was to make clear that there would be no Cherry Picking following the Brexit. And every member of the EU stands behind that, rightfully so, IMHO.
Only a stupid cynic would hope that the UK suffers from the Brexit. All the people i know are only sorry the UK left, because we think that we belong together, and that it was the wrong decision for all of us. That is my opinion too. I hope for the best.
The UK will always be a part of Europe and we better stay together as close as we can.
Obviously the EU can not let a state leaving the union to get a “better” (whatever that means) deal than member states. That has nothing to do with “retaliation”. One of the main reasons for Brexit was a desire for the UK to determine its own immigration policy. If this means that EU citizens will not have freedom of movement in the UK, then the UK can’t expect its own citizens to have freedom of movement in the EU. For example.
It would be back to the DM for you, its value would appreciate rapidly, and your exports would be overpriced and uncompetitive. Germany is a strong exporter; stronger than the UK, and it absolutely needs to have its currency diluted…
German economy grew to what it is now mainly in the decades of the strong DM. But personally I don’t care the least about money and for me the EU is not about money but a group of different cultures which are united in peace.
German economy grew to what it is now mainly in the decades of the strong DM. But personally I don’t care the least about money and for me the EU is not about money but a group of different cultures which are united in peace.
Exactly right on both accounts. But this was never properly understood in the UK in over 40 years of EU membership. “Ever closer union” was written in bold text right in the 1957 Treaty of Rome. But the UK always treated it as a mere trade union despite Churchill of all people already proposing a United States of Europe back in 1948. He had learned the lesson of two devastating world wars. The Brexiteers obviously have not.
I wish the UK all the best and consider myself an anglophile. But it is ill understood in the UK what a giant middle finger Brexit is to the rest of the continent.
Alexis wrote:
All the people i know are only sorry the UK left, because we think that we belong together, and that it was the wrong decision for all of us. That is my opinion too. I hope for the best.
This is one of the main issues about stuff like this. I remember when Norway voted for and against membership. I bet 99% decided what to vote based on feeling rather than reasoning. I mean reasoning certainly was important, but in the end, and deep down, it was feelings that made the decision. The feeling of being part of a greater Europe vs the feeling of standing on your own two feet. The feeling of being “left out” vs the feeling of being “overrun” by EU bureaucrats.
Those who can make the most compelling feeling based arguments or rather “atmosphere” will always win, but impossible to predict up front. You have to project “bad feeling” on the opponent and “good feeling” on yourself. No one knows what the future holds in any case.
Norway is a tiny country, population of a suburb of London. If we or in or out, doesn’t really mean all that much for the EU as a whole. The UK is one of the largest powers in EU. Of course the UK leaving is much worse for EU than it is for the UK. How the EU will work in the longer term with France and Germany left, without the third large player, the UK, is a mystery to me.
