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The Alps claim another one: Commander 112 D-ELPO (and cost sharing/advertising discussion)

Maybe the rules for cost sharing flights should contain some sort of mandatory briefing sheet for all potential passengers. A bit like the mandatory “Experimental” sign.

people like that are doing a massive disservice to GA.

Totally my view too. Having seen the vast majority of new PPL holders chuck it in pretty much right away, I have been a sort of “champion” for GA for 20+ years, initially with this (which, believe it or not, acquired a huge profile in years past, and stimulated a lot of people to go places, buy planes, get the IR, etc), then on various (now mostly dysfunctional) forums, then within PPL/IR (until I got fed up with internal politics), also involved in the “save the IMCR” campaign, and finally with David setting up EuroGA which nowadays takes up a chunk of my time. So I find it upsetting when somebody does some stunt like this. The only way to have made it worse would have been to do it in an N-reg…

Maybe the rules for cost sharing flights should contain some sort of mandatory briefing sheet for all potential passengers. A bit like the mandatory “Experimental” sign.

I think the UK CAA wants to do that, somewhere here.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Sebastian_G wrote:

Maybe the rules for cost sharing flights should contain some sort of mandatory briefing sheet for all potential passengers.

I think the crucial thing here is the advertising. In this, the FAA has gotten it right. You can cost share (pro-rated), but you cannot advertise the flight. The FB post advertising this flight reads like it was done by a professional organization in an all-weather airplane. As pilots we of course know that’s total BS, but Joe Bloggs doesn’t and cannot be expected to know. That’s why we have things like AOC and airline ops.

This is for another thread – maybe the wingly one? – but there will always be a struggle between the different factions. In Europe, GA is poor, and many pilots will not fly at all unless they can cost share (AFAICS this is equally true in the UK “individual” rental scene and the more integrated and organised French club scene) and thus being able to attract cost sharers is key to supporting GA activity. And I am sure this is the argument made to EASA which got them to allow the truly amazingly permissive current system (which the UK still runs; at least for the time being).

What this pilot did was so far outside that sphere… and it would have been the same if they didn’t crash. I mean, advertise it on a 100k+ member FB site?? That post would have resulted in a notification sent to each of those 100k+. This is going some, as they say here… It is astonishing that the CZ CAA was not waiting for him before departing.

The FAA system is different in various ways and most notably in that cost sharing is not big in the US. There is a lot more GA activity and there is a lot more money in it. I don’t get the feeling that the US has a lot of “fly only if I get some $$$” pilots. So the strict FAA rules don’t really come into effect much.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Snoopy wrote:

Even more so on Insta

Quote: Adrenaline lover-planes.

Whatever that means (is it auto-translated?), it paints a certain picture.

EDQH, Germany

Regarding the advertising: I’m struggling to see how this is different from the kind of advertising Wingly does. The quoted price is actually a little bit lower than the ca. 160€/h which a C172 will cost on Wingly. Of course, as the owner of the plane he can only demand the direct operating costs from his passengers so what he advertised seems still a little bit too high. The language is also not really different. On Wingly it is always along the line of this highly experienced pilot with over so many hours who in his day job flies top level executives of fortune 500 companies across the Atlantic will take you in his meticulously maintained Cessna – the company which also makes the jets he normally flies – on a breathtaking scenic flight over the suburbs of your hometown. The BS factor is not a single bit lower than what’s written in that FB post.

EDQH, Germany

Not much on LinkedIn. Even more so on Insta

Looking at dates and planes on apron, I realized we were at Portoroz LJPZ at the same time. I saw two Commanders during the week I was there (one dark blue Slovenian and one white – didn’t notice reg) but I didn’t see anyone around the white plane which was probably D-ELPO.

Last Edited by Emir at 28 Nov 06:33
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

I see it like @ga_pete, I wouldn’t ever want to burden myself with additional pressure for the fear of it turning into a Kennedy flight. And to be perfectly honest, this even seems like a valid reason for rules against cost sharing. This, not the bimble around the church in CAVOK, but how to draw the line?

The thing I wonder about – In hindsight this flight was a bad idea and obviously so – but was it, when he posted it?
If yes, I wonder why in this 120k member Facebook community no other pilot noticed? I don’t do Facebook so I really don’t know. On the other hand, no one knows about the pilot’s ratings and the plane’s s capabilities, so there is that.

Berlin, Germany

I did many flight in cost sharing, most of it with wingly and it has always been a delight. I had a bit of reluctance with passengers I don’t know, but actually people going in wingly flights (I meant A to A scenic flight around cote d\azur) do like the experience a lot. I have about 50 hours spread during 2019 2020, and almost all was good expriences.
The worse (2) being:
- a couple, ~20yo, the guy had partying with a lot of alcool the day before. He told me that he was not in great shape but should be good. He vomited the first time 5 minutes after TO, and the second time after landing. Even after I proposed to land after and he wanted to continue although he was terribly motion-sick. He never was a threat, and his Gf on the back row did enjoy the ride.
- A father and his daughter, from a gift of the brother. The girl, ~17yo, didn’t care a bit of flying and was in her cellphone sending message all flight long. It was blue sky no wind, quiet flight. The father, ~65yo, was hanging all hands on, looking very unconfortable but was saying the contrary. The son was a passionate of flying but didn’t come, and just offered what he like to his relatives, but they were just not interested in.

All other flight was a real great time sharing, I kept contact with a tens of them and sometimes, flying with them. Once with a pro photographers over the alps, looking for next trek on the height, made the best picture of me flying ever and I still keep them with a lot of care.

Please don’t condemn the cost-sharing platform or the type. The problem is with the people wrongly using it (but it existed before the platform) and because obviously, there is not enough control on the pilots.

It is drifting to another topic, but cost sharing platform should :-
-request CPL
-put more contraints on flight process (fill a form with weather, M/B, preflight, OP fpl)
-train pilot for legalities and passengers management
-allow pilot to legally gain more than a marginal part of the cost.

Then we may see more flights and less dead.

Last Edited by greg_mp at 28 Nov 07:53
LFMD, France

I happily invite friends to go places with me but the first thing that I say is that their flexibility has to range from delayed departure/arrival to canceling the trip to return with airline. I simply don’t accept any peer pressure regardless of the aircraft capabilities. Advertising SEP as all-weather aircraft is irresponsible, reckless and dangerous, and the consequences are as in this case.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia
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