Class E airspace

Fenland_Flyer wrote:

just trying to see the point of the exemption

There is no exemption – in a TMZ a glider is required to be transponder-equipped as well. That’s a SERA-rule. The “blanket”-requirement in Germany for transponders in powered aircraft above 5000 MSL has been around for decades, certainly before any widespread use of ACAS-systems, especially in small GA. Admittedly things have changed since then and one would find better arguments today to mandate transponders also for gliders – but remember: Even a “cheap” transponder-installation might double the value of an older glider and be something like a 10-year flying budget for some glider pilots.

What use would be a transponder to a glider?
- ATC separation: good luck separating gliders between themselves or giving them assigned heading/altitude to fly
- Traffic awareness: one can see gliders on other EC (PAW, FLARM, ADSB) but everything is converging to ADSB now
Those who fly in controlled airspace will have transponders (and engines), except under local airspace arrangements with ATC

Though mandatary transponder above 5000ft in class G may make some sense (or at least some form off ATS contact/notification), no one is expecting to find gliders or non-TXP traffic there (we had an encounter flying gliders at 10000ft while in ATC contact, the KC135 crew who was advised by our approximate position/height spot us first, they did a friendly close overtake to make sure we never have the nerves to fly there again )

In the UK, the reason why Class E has not been used generally is due to MONEY.

If you set up CAS you need to pay for ATC staff to provide a service in it.

In Class G, especially as IFR is allowed non-radio, and nobody cares who does what in it, you need to provide only the ICAO FIS (called Basic Service) and that is done by e.g. London Info which is quite cheap because they are FISOs, and don’t officially have radar (they do but they aren’t allowed to say so on the radio). The service covers a vast area and on a nice day is basically useless so few people use it, so it doesn’t cost much

In Class E, IFR now needs a clearance and extra ATC desks need to be set up. Each NATS radar desk has been reported as costing £1M/year for 24/7 coverage, and that was at least 10 years ago.

The US uses Class E very effectively to stop “VFR” traffic flying in IMC near airports and IAP paths. Of course they also have a much more accessible IR than Europe’s crippled efforts.

There is resistance to transponders for gliding and aerobatics, for obvious reasons

Maoraigh wrote:

Trig Mode S transponders cost less than £2000, and fitting to, and maintenance in, an LAA Permit aircraft is DIY, with Inspector check.

Many gliders (including the popular low cost ones, like the Ka-8) are EASA certified, so you can’t do it yourself, and it needs all the major modification ballache you get with a powered aircraft to fit a bigger battery and more robust electrical system. The cost of doing all that will easily cost as much as the transponder itself, and then there’s the ongoing costs of doing the periodic checks that EASA aircraft require on transponders. To add to this, a transponder is nearly useless to a glider pilot: it’s a huge expense for virtually no benefit.

Given a Ka-8 typically will sell for £1000 to £1500, and are often owned by people who can only really afford that much + the cost of flying, it would ground an awful lot of people.

We are incredibly fortunate as LAA members with Permit aircraft we can do this work ourselves with just an inspector signoff, and the checks on transponders can be done in a pragmatic way by the owner (and the LAA will take the owners word for it!) And most of us fitting or replacing a transponder already have an electrical system that’s more than capable, so the modifications required are typically a lot less.

alioth wrote:

Many gliders (including the popular low cost ones, like the Ka-8) are EASA certified, so you can’t do it yourself, and it needs all the major modification ballache you get with a powered aircraft to fit a bigger battery and more robust electrical system.

Are you sure? Every glider club I know do virtually all work on their aircraft themselves. Also

Standard Change CS-SC002c INSTALLATION OF MODE S ELEMENTARY SURVEILLANCE EQUIPMENT
Standard Change CS-SC004a INSTALLATION OF ANTENNAS
Standard Change CS-SC037a EXCHANGE OF A MAIN AIRCRAFT BATTERY

are applicable to all gliders so you don’t need any kind of modification approval.

I have never heard of any certified this or that on gliders. A glider “technician” (or whatever the EASA term is), can do everything on a glider. Nevertheless, it could be a transponder is special. It’s an airspace requirement, not some CS requirement.

Peter wrote:

If you set up CAS you need to pay for ATC staff to provide a service in it.

According to that “movie” I posted in the “long thread”, UK has the densest GA population in Europe in a tiny airspace. Surely this population is able to pay what the ATC costs ? In Norway, as long as you are high enough to get the radio working, you have service everywhere. This is “financed” by take off fees at Avinor airports, although everyone gets this service whether they use Avinor airports or not. The service is a benefit for everyone; GA, military and CAT alike, and the benefit is largest if everyone use the service for every flight.

We had airspace E for a while, a long time ago. It was used for “airways”. Can’t remember I ever used such an “airway”, and I’m not sure what exactly the purpose was (instead of using airspace C as is used today above all “low level” airspaces).

alioth wrote:

I’m hoping that the acceptance of class-E (and class E + TMZ) will result in some great swathes of class D being reclassified to class E+TMZ in the future

Perhaps it would also help, when class-D in the UK becomes more open to GA? Take France as an example, where you get your clearances right away from FIS. Or Croatia, where the entire country is covered by class D starting at 1.000 ft AGL, but Radar gives you any clearance you want.

Peter wrote:

London Info which is quite cheap because they are FISOs, and don’t officially have radar (they do but they aren’t allowed to say so on the radio).

Do they really have Radar? According to this video, they’re looking at an paper chart… Only that little monitor on the right corner might be something like a radar, but almost not usable in a productive environment. And they never looked at that screen in the video either…

I was told, during a visit to Swanwick best part of 10 years ago that London Info can see “all traffic”, not just the 7xxx squawks which they issue.

That’s quite an old video AFAIK, dragging out – as all NATS videos always do – the usual muppet stuff about GA shutting down Gatwick etc, and I can’t watch the whole hour to see what London Info can see But London Info cannot be openly shown to have radar desks. The ATC unions would go crazy, for a start. Some fudge had to be done and I suspect they can see only their own squawks, and as I said before they are not allowed to say anything on the radio about seeing you.

So London Info is not relevant to Class E, other than for the normal FIS.

Yes; France and Croatia are fine, but they are pragmatic, with a “can do” attitude, and don’t have the crippled UK system…

Yes as Peter says, London FIS have radars and can see all traffic even non-txp but “not for operational use” (as do most of Tower ATC who are not radar rated)

Try calling them for basic service on a non-txp aircraft then head to white cliffs for some fun, they will call you exatcly as you overfly water for position report and intentions , in the other hand they won’t give position fix over land and will suggest to call D&D on 121.5 they may also advise of airspace/traffic using that but don’t expect much !